a small clarification

[Guest guest]

My opinion to Shri Sheshadri Ranganathan's question:

 

All the souls here are destined for liberation,

some take a few life times, some take more.

 

As long as we are content (this is a loaded word)

in this life given by god, all is well here.

We have perumal in so many forms (not just the forms

that we Sri Vaishnavas know.) around you, to worship,

pray, dote devote, fall in love etc)

 

Perumal comes to us in the form, language and context so that we

can understand him better.

He comes in an Indian look and feel, language etc to us, as

we would understand him better in that form.

He spoke in Tamil/ Hindi/ Sanskrit so he could communicate to us.

 

Our perumal is representing himself to other people of the

world who speak other languages (also to other life forms

and other specie in other parts of his Universe.) in whatever form,

shape and language they can understand.

 

So it does not matter if I am liberated in this life or

xx lives from now, as long as perumal gives me the knowledge to know,

understand, worship & have a concious relationship with him in every

life I have here. I know all of us commit sins (at least I do) & do not

deserve liberation through our right. If he chooses to save/help

(like the 2nd case in your example.) we will be liberated.

 

Our actions and prayer, devotion to god is not towards liberation,

we do it because we enjoy it and perumal enjoys it.

 

No matter what all we do, just by our actions, learings etc we cannot

get liberated. The only chance is through perumal's karuna/kripa/daya

towards us. And he knows what we seek in our hearts.

 

In your example:

The 1st person is indeed in a concious relationship with God, he is in

bliss in this life itself. If this soul is liberated that is great, if

not, the soul already knows the spiritual satisfaction. So in the next

life the soul is going to be in a concious relationship with God again.

 

In the 2nd case is the person has truly undergone pancha samskaram

(not just be actions, but in the heart) of course he is now in

a state of concious relationship with god, so he will be in bliss.

 

Best Regards,

 

Mukundan Vankipuram Pattangi

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrI Lakshminrusimha ParabrahmaNE namaha

SrI Lakshminrusimha divya pAdukA sEvaka SrIvaN-

SatakOpa SrI nArAyaNa yateendra mahAdESIkAya namaha

 

Dear devotees,

namO nArAyaNA.

 

----------------

SrI Mani wrote:

So, while according to doctrine, supreme liberation may

not be assured, as it is if one surrenders to Sriman Narayana

as conceived of by our scriptures, I cannot rule out the

merciful Lord from granting liberation to whomever *He*

sees fit. After all, He is 'nirankusa-svatantran', isn't He?

In fact, I believe either a good birth or liberation itself

is assured for the first person.

-------------------------

 

adiyEn would also like to point towards an earlier discussion

regarding this issue. Kindly refer to the posting on

7th April 1999 in the archives (probably the thread on

"bhakti and prapatti").

---------------------

 

Ofcourse, God is independent. But, He is Satya Sankalpan,

and will not act whimsically, performing things against

the sAstrAs.

 

PerumAL Himself, in Ahirbudhnya samhitA

categorically declares :

 

" bhaktyA paramayA vA-pi prapattyA vA mahAmathe

prApyoham na anyathA prApyO mama kainkarya lipsubhihi"

 

PerumAL declares that bhakti and prapatti are the

only means (sAdhyOpAyam, to be adopted by a jIvAtma)

for which He will grant moksham (kainkaryam at Sri

vaikuNTham) and for _no other means_ adopted by the

jIvAtmA, will He grant moksham.

 

By the way, the above verse has been quoted by

SwAmi dESIkan in His SrImad Rahasyatraya sAram.

 

Thus, eventhough SrIman nArAyaNa has every independency

and "rights" to _directly_ grant moksham for anyone

(who has not adopted either bhakti Or prapatti), He

goes by His own words/sAstrAs, that being His kalyANa

guNa. He neither suddenly decides that moksham should

not be granted for prapannAs, nor does He suddenly decide

to grant moksham for someone who has not performed a

sAdhyOpAya viz. either bhakti Or Prapatti. The eternal

sAstrAs are always true and PerumAL will not violate

them.

 

Even if God grants moksham to someone He picks, not in

accordance with sAstrAs, then He is certainly liable to

arbitrariness and partiallity to those He picks, resulting

in cruelty to others who haven't obtained moksham. Thus, this

option is not possible, since God never behaves with such

characteristics ( Iswaratthukku hAni). SrIman nArAyaNA has

already listed in sAstrAs as to whom He sees as "fit" to

obtain moksham. They are the the bhakti yOgIs and the prapannAs.

All other devotees, who are very sincere will certainly be guided

by the most merciful PerumAL to adopt either bhakti yOga Or

Prapatti and will then grant moksham ie. PerumAL will not directly

grant them moksham, without making them undergo some "vyAja"

(excuse) like either bhakti or prapatti (Otherwise, there is no

meaning for these "vyAjAs" to be imposed by Him in the sAstrAs;

He could as well grant moksham to everyone in one moment).

 

PerumAL certainly reciprocates to His devotees in

various ways ; no one can comprehend it. He is

bhakta vatsalan. But, whether He grants moksham

to them depends upon the performance of the

sAdhyOpAya.

 

Infact, King Dasaratha was very fortunate to have

Lord Rama to be his son. But, Dasarathar went

only to svargA after his death, since he didn't

complete either bhakti yOgam OR prapatti.

 

PAndavAs also were very intimate with Lord Krishna.

But, for moksham, they didn't perform either

prapatti Or upAsanA, and thus didn't obtain

moksham that time.

 

But, during the rAma avatAram, everyone at AyOdhya

were taken to the vibhava lOkam called

SaantAnika lOkam (rAma lOkam), from where those

jIvAtmAs performed either bhakti Or Prapatti to

attain moksham (ie. This is what meant by statements

like "everyone at ayOdhya attained moksham" ; Here,

the time frame is not specified; It implies the "krama

mukti" <stage by stage mukti ?> and not direct mukti to

Sri VaikunTHam).

 

During the rAmAvatAram, trijadai performed

prapatti for herself and other rAkshasIs, and

all of them obtained moksham !!

 

The karmA associated with a baddha jIvAtmA is anAdi and

it has taken countless births. Each jIvAtmA obtains

sukrudams from beginingless time. These things pile

up to a stage wherein PerumAL makes that jIvAtmA perform

either bhakti Or prapatti.

 

But, it is beyond our knowledge to exactly list out the

things a person has to have, that will certainly result in

PerumAL making that person perform prapatti and grant moksham.

One can only in general say things like obtaining

the association of bhAgavathAs, getting AchArya Sambandham,

learning about glories of PerumAL and prapatti etc will aid

in one performing prapatti. But someone satisfying these

things also may not perform prapatti (with the five angAs and

three angIs) due to some pApa karmAs. Only PerumAL knows

exactly the status of each jIvAtmA. But once a jIvAtmA performed

prapatti, it can be easily inferred that it has got the neccessary

sukrudam to undergo prapatti. Only from the effect (performance of

prapatti) can the cause(sukrudams) be understood in this case.

The exact nature of the cause (sukrudams) is known only to the

Divya Dampati. Thats why, in the context of granting moksham,

PerumAL's mercy is sometimes said to be "nirhEtu" ie. the

"hEtu" or reason(here,referring to sukrudams) is unknown

(to us) !!

 

Along the journey from beginingless time,

the jIvAtma acquires various sukrudams. Thus,

though according to some pApa karmA, the jIvAtma

may be deprived of bhagavad anubhavam for many years,

but due to the appropriate sukrudam it has accumulated

from anAdi, that jIvAtmA will be made to perform prapatti

by PerumAL and it will ascend to Sri VaikuNTham. Thats

why, we see some getting suddenly changed in their life

and undergo samASrayanam and bhara-nyAsam (prapatti),

leading a life of a prapanna. Also, for instance, all

the rAkshasIs were torturing sItA pirAtti ; but finally

obtained moksham. Only due to their sukrudam,

they were at asOka vanam with trijadai, sIta pirAtti

and finally obtained moksham also due to the

prapatti of trijadai for them.

 

In another case, though in the current life one

is highly devoted, some pApa(s) of the past may

obstruct that jIvAtma from performing prapatti for

moksham.

 

The bottomline is that, only either bhakti Or Prapatti

from the side of jIvAtma is used as the vyAja for

SrIman nArAyaNa to grant moksham. But, the performance

of these sAdhyOpAyAs are again due to Lord's mercy,

in accordance with the sukrudams accumulated for

the jIvAtma. The various sukrudams are actually mercifully

allotted by PerumAL in accordance with the actions of each

jIvAtma. Those who are well devoted towards SrIman nArAyaNa

are slowly led by Him to perform either bhakti Or prapatti.

In each and every step, it is only the supreme unparalleled

mercy of SrIman nArAyaNa that needs to be understood and

meditated upon.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

ananthapadmanAbha dAsan (Anand Karalapakkam)

krishNArpaNam

[Guest guest]

Anand Karalapakkam wrote:

> He neither suddenly decides that moksham should

> not be granted for prapannAs, nor does He suddenly decide

> to grant moksham for someone who has not performed a

> sAdhyOpAya viz. either bhakti Or Prapatti. The eternal

> sAstrAs are always true and PerumAL will not violate

> them. [... rest deleted ...]

 

Dear Anand,

 

I think you are not understanding my point. Of course

Sriman Narayana is neither partial nor cruel. And of course

He looks for a "vyAja" or pretext to save the jIva. In fact,

our acharyas and Alvars say that Emberumaan is constantly

doing "tapas", in temples, in our hearts, everywhere He

is, because He waits for a single jIvAtmA to turn to Him.

 

This being the case, we cannot limit what Emberumaan interprets

as a pretext to give moksha. What does He interpret to be

prapatti? Of course, He has systematized it in so many ways

to make it easy for us to follow a particular path, but for

those people who are completely ignorant of the shastras, He

may take some mental or physical act of self-surrender or

devotion on their part as being prapatti. We cannot limit

Him just because it doesn't suit our fancy.

 

You object that this makes Him partial. Not at all. Even

the strict, codified bhakti-yoga and prapatti that you mention

are mere vyAjas -- pretexts. They are not by themselves the

reason you get moksha. It is Emberumaan's karuNA and His

sankalpam to get *the jIva* that is the actual upAya. So,

there is no question of impartiality, since all these things,

whether they are commonly accepted notions of sAdhanas or

otherwise, are mere pretexts for His bestowing his grace.

Even the poor beggar in Indonesia who falls in all abandon

before his idea of God *may* be given moksha by Emberumaan,

because He takes this abandonment as the beggar's prapatti.

This in no way makes Emberumaan cruel or partial.

 

You may wish to see some of Desika's anubhavas in his stotras

to this effect (e.g., Saranagati Dipika), or the outstanding

contributions of Sri Pillai Lokacharya in "Sri Vachana Bhushanam"

which present a similar idea.

 

On another topic, you write:

> But, during the rAma avatAram, everyone at AyOdhya

> were taken to the vibhava lOkam called

> SaantAnika lOkam (rAma lOkam), from where those

> jIvAtmAs performed either bhakti Or Prapatti to

> attain moksham (ie. This is what meant by statements

> like "everyone at ayOdhya attained moksham" ; Here,

> the time frame is not specified; It implies the "krama

> mukti" <stage by stage mukti ?> and not direct mukti to

> Sri VaikunTHam).

 

I am sure you say this because some scholar has told you

this, but frankly, such a conclusion strikes me as being

completely unwarranted and at variance with the texts

and early commentaries. Why posit an intervening "loka"

when none is mentioned?

 

Nammalvar says, simply, "naRpaal ayOththiyil vaazum charaacharam

muRRavum, naRpaalukku uyththanan naanmukan naaR peRRa naattuLE,"

which Kulasekshara Perumaal amplifies as "anRu caraacarangaLai

vaikundhaththu ERRi..." Is your statement above supported by

the original commentaries on these paasurams?

 

Please do clarify

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Mani

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Narayanaya Namaha

 

As Mani has aptly pointed out, EmberumAn is "Nirankusa Swathanthran".

He is not tied up by any sAdhyOpAyam that we do to grant us mOksham.

As is the case if He has to grant mOksham only for those who does

either Bhakti or Prapatti, then the very title that He is "Nirankusa

Swathanthran" fails.

 

Well the question arises that if that is the case what is the point

in doing Bhakti and Prapatti, if He is going to grant mOksham at His

will. These upAyams are only to season ourselves to receive His

kadAksham. The following pAsuram from BhoothathAzhwAr's IrandAm

thiruvandhAdi explains the use of Bhakti and Prapatti.

 

" Thanakkadimaipp pattadu thAnaRiAnElum

manathadaya vaippadhAm mAlai, vanathidarai

yEriyAm vaNNam iyaRRum idhuvallAl

mAriyAr peygirpAr maRRu"

 

Here "Vanathidarai ........maRRu" means that the rain is coming on is

own. Like wise our EmberumAn's kadAksham is purely on His own

decision. But you can receive the rain and use it only if we create

some lakes and ponds. Otherwise the rain will go waste. Also just

because we have created lakes and ponds, it will not rain. Like wise,

just because we have done Bhakti or Prapatti, EmberumAn will not

grant mOksham. We do these things only to season ourselves and to

indicate our EmberumAn that we are ready to receive His grace.

 

Also as pointed out by Mani, EmberumAn is constantly doing tapas to

find out atleast one jIvAtmA is available to shower His mercy. By

doing Bhakti or Prapatti, we are only indicating to Him, that we are

one of such jIvAtmAs, He is looking for.

 

This is my understanding from the upanyAsams that I have heard,

please do correct me for any mistakes.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

 

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

T.V.Venkatesh

E-mail : TVV

Phone: 91-44-4960455 extn. 5218

Fax : 91-44-4960913

Visit : http://www.sanmargroup.com

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[Guest guest]

Sri T.V. Venkat wrote:

> As Mani has aptly pointed out, EmberumAn is "Nirankusa Swathanthran".

> He is not tied up by any sAdhyOpAyam that we do to grant us mOksham.

> As is the case if He has to grant mOksham only for those who does

> either Bhakti or Prapatti, then the very title that He is "Nirankusa

> Swathanthran" fails.

 

[...]

> Like wise, just because we have done Bhakti or Prapatti,

> EmberumAn will not grant mOksham. We do these things only to

> season ourselves and to indicate our EmberumAn that we are

> ready to receive His grace.

 

Dear Venkat and Others,

 

Thanks for your informative note. What you write above is

the Thengalai acharyas' concept of bhakti-yoga and prapatti.

The acharyas in this school argue that prapatti (self-surrender)

should not be thought of as a means (upAya), even in a secondary sense,

but only as an "adhikAri-viseshaNa", an attribute of the true aspirant.

They do this to emphasize their point that God's grace is not

caused, not even by bhakti-yoga and prapatti, but is purely dependent

on His will. This school of thought insists that Emberumaan alone

should be thought of as the upAya, and that nothing the jIva does

causes him to get moksha -- all that is needed is knowledge the

relationship between the jIva and Emberumaan and non-rejection

of His grace.

 

The Vadagalai acharyas follow Vedanta Desika in offering a subtly

different idea. Basing his arguments on scriptural texts and logic,

Desika forcefully argues that bhakti-yoga and prapatti are both sAdhya-upAyas,

i.e., that which must be done by a jIva. God stands ready, ever-waiting

for the bhakti-yogi to visualize Him or the prapanna to offer his

burdens to Him. Upon seeing a jIva do one of these, He completely

overlooks the past transgressions of the jIva, is immensely pleased

at the jIva's change of course, and uses this opportunity to shower

His beatifying grace upon the jIva and grant him moksha. This is

why bhakti-yoga and prapatti are called "vyAja" or pretexts for

God's grace. This is exactly what He needs to act as the siddhopAya,

the ever-existent means. Based on these ideas, Desika argues that

the shastra teaches us that a para-bhakta or prapanna is certainly

destined for moksha.

 

The difference between these two views is very subtle. The Thengalai

acharyas are trying at all costs to safeguard the psychological

primacy of God in their idea of prapatti. The Vadagalai acharyas

are trying to preserve the meaningfulness of shastraic injunctions

and guidance on the road to liberation.

 

Now, my usage of the term "nirankusa svaatantryam" (unfettered

independence) with reference to Emberumaan is not as you indicate

above. I am not claiming that prapatti is not an upAya. Rather,

I am saying that we cannot envision what Emberumaan will *consider*

as prapatti in an aspirant, especially one who shows all signs of

sincerity but who fails because of lack of knowledge, lack of

adequate time or place, etc. In this respect, I am arguing that

Emberumaan may possibly use even "unconventional" prapattis as

vyAjas or pretexts for showering His grace. We just cannot limit

Him in this aspect.

 

For those of us who have association with a sad-AchArya, of course,

there should be no doubt about ourselves, as we are following the tried

and true path.

 

adiyen ramanuja dasan

Mani

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Narayanaya Namaha.

 

Sri Mani wrote,

> The Vadagalai acharyas follow Vedanta Desika in offering a subtly

> different idea. Basing his arguments on scriptural texts and logic,

> Desika forcefully argues that bhakti-yoga and prapatti are both sAdhya-upAyas,

 

Can you please guide me to any works or texts that emphasize this

point, other than Sir Desikar's works. (Please do not consider this

as an argument. Just I wanted to learn)

 

Sri Mani wrote :

> i.e., that which must be done by a jIva. God stands ready, ever-waiting

> for the bhakti-yogi to visualize Him or the prapanna to offer his

> burdens to Him. Upon seeing a jIva do one of these, He completely

> overlooks the past transgressions of the jIva, is immensely pleased

> at the jIva's change of course, and uses this opportunity to shower

> His beatifying grace upon the jIva and grant him moksha.

 

Yes this is also a view accepted by the Thennacharyas, if I am not

mistaken. A clear example is the work by Sri AruLALa perumAL

emberumAnAr, in his work, GnAnasAram, says that emberumAn accepts all

the sins of the jIvAtma with pleasure when he surrenders before Him,

just like the Cow licks the new calf off its body to remove all the

undesirable dirts. Similar view is expressed by Swami Desikan also in

his Daya Satakam in the sloka " autsukhya poorvam..", but the example

is different.

 

Sri Mani wrote :

> The difference between these two views is very subtle. The Thengalai

> acharyas are trying at all costs to safeguard the psychological

> primacy of God in their idea of prapatti.

 

While your intentions may not be what I am writing, the sentence

"trying at all costs" seems to give a wrong picture about the total

sampradAyam and that it is philosophically wrong.

 

Sri Mani wrote :-

> Now, my usage of the term "nirankusa svaatantryam" (unfettered

> independence) with reference to Emberumaan is not as you indicate

> above. I am not claiming that prapatti is not an upAya. Rather,

> I am saying that we cannot envision what Emberumaan will *consider*

> as prapatti in an aspirant, especially one who shows all signs of

> sincerity but who fails because of lack of knowledge, lack of

> adequate time or place, etc. In this respect, I am arguing that

> Emberumaan may possibly use even "unconventional" prapattis as

> vyAjas or pretexts for showering His grace. We just cannot limit

> Him in this aspect.

 

Again, even the ThennAchArya sampradhAyam does not deny this. As is

very clear from NammAzhwAr's Periya ThiruvandhAdhi, EmberumAn is

always waiting for a prapanna to turn towards Him to shower His

grace. This is evident from the pAsuram " ... un adiyArkku en seivan

enRE irutthi nee...", meaning "You are always waiting to do some

thing good for your adiyAr". Also Sri VeLukkudi Swamy use to say in

his upanyAsams the following story. There was a man who used to let

his cow free for grazing. One day when he wanted to bring the cow,

home, he went to catch it but it ran away from him, thus doing a

pradakshinam of the temple in that place. Please note that this man

is an atheist, but what our emberumAn did is " Oh this atheist is

doing pradakshiNam to me and hence I have to bless him " and so He

does.

 

So it is true that emberumAn is waiting to shower His grace on His

devotees and takes every small pretexts as a gesture for

conferring mOksham to that jIvAtmA..

 

Now the question is, that the pAsuram, "....vanathidarai EriyAm

vaNNam...", to my understanding conveys whatever adiyEn wrote

earlier. May be my understanding is wrong about the pAsuram. However

I request, more eminent scholars in list to enlighten us in this

issue

 

One important request to all who read this is, please do not turn

this into a fight between the Thenkalai and Vadakalai philosophies.

We are here to learn.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

 

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

Regards

 

T.V.Venkatesh

E-mail : TVV

Phone: 91-44-4960455 extn. 5218

Fax : 91-44-4960913

Visit : http://www.sanmargroup.com

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