Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 Dear members, adiyen learns from newspaper report that even these days, (in fact just a few weeks ago!) in parts of India (like a village in UP, India) the practice of "sati" (widow immolating herself on husband's funeral pyre) is not uncommon. Even as late as 17th century CE "sati" was widely prevalent in India (more in the north than south, of course). In the 10th to 14th century it might have been quite common. adiyen would like to learn from members if they know of any reference in history to SriRamanujAchArya or other SriVaishnava achAryAs (preceding or succeeding him) having any known and public views on "sati" and whether they came out for or against it. adiyen knows that the AzhwArs and Ramanuja were insightful social commentators too in their own right. They commented widely for example on a brahminical society's severe treatment of "under-castes". They had plenty to say against the empty "ritualisms" of meemAmsakAs and the "dogmas" of advaitic orthodoxy. But adiyen has not come across any references in history or religious literature to their utterances on the social practice of "sati". Also adiyen would like to know if any of you have any idea if "sati" in those days had Vedic basis or not. Any pramANams? Thanks, dAsan, Sampathkumaran Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Shopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 1999 Report Share Posted November 29, 1999 The following URL will give some useful information on the 'Vedaness' of Sati and Widow remarraige: http://members.home.net/lumiere/karma/kewidow.htm Best wishes Vishal In a message dated 11/28/99 10:06:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, sampathkumar_2000 writes: << Also adiyen would like to know if any of you have any idea if "sati" in those days had Vedic basis or not. Any pramANams? Thanks, dAsan, Sampathkumaran >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 1999 Report Share Posted November 30, 1999 --- VAgarwalV wrote: > The following URL will give some useful information > on the 'Vedaness' of Sati > and Widow remarraige: > http://members.home.net/lumiere/karma/kewidow.htm > > Best wishes Dear Sri.Vishal Agarwal, Thank you so much for the URL. Most useful information! I did not know earlier that there were specific references to "sati" and "widow-remarriage" in the Atharvana-veda and the "manu-smriti". Thanks to you I now have the direct references though not in the original text form. It still however leaves my question unanswered as to why great "achAryA-s" like adi Sankara or SriRamanujAchArya remained silent on the issue! Is it because they too like us in the present times felt that the Vedas did not have anything definitive to say on the subject? Is their silence reflective of what seems to us now as one of those examples of Vedic "equivocation" on the whole subject? "sati" was outlawed in India by the passing of the famous "Sarada Act", I think. Wonder if the transcripts of the parliamentary debates (if one can lay hands on them) leading to that historic enactment could possibly throw some light on this. adiyen really wonders. dAsan, Sampathkumaran Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Shopping: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 1999 Report Share Posted November 30, 1999 Dear Sri Vishal Agarwal: Many Thanks for the splendid reference to Dr.Frank Morales work and your annotated comments from Vedic sources on this question of "Sati". Any civilization is to be judged on the basis of how it treats women, Children and Older citizens . In this context , I can not but lean towards VedAs , which have their preeminent place in the hierarchy of PramANams . Hence I will put a lower emphasis on PurANAs and rely on the guidance of Vedic wisdom . The human suffering of the widows in India especially in the villages and the cruelty shown to them even today is legendary .Besides the profound pain of loss of the loved one , the living hell that they experience is indescribable. My father had an aunt , who was married as in the olden times at the age of eight .Her "Child" husband died at the age of 12 from an accidnet . I remember well my father's aunt being shunted from one house to the other (Her brother's and other relatives ) and literally going out of her mind .The (menatal) himsais caused to her and others in their unfortunate status are a sad blot to our history as people believing in the great declaration , "AhimsA paramO dharma:".This makes one shudder. I am totally against this type of treatment of women and am absolutely abhorred by the thought of Sati being practised in this day and age anywhere . V.Sadagopan At 06:18 PM 11/29/99 EST, you wrote: >The following URL will give some useful information on the 'Vedaness' of Sati >and Widow remarraige: >http://members.home.net/lumiere/karma/kewidow.htm > >Best wishes > >Vishal > >In a message dated 11/28/99 10:06:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, >sampathkumar_2000 writes: ><< > Also adiyen would like to know if any of you have any > idea if "sati" in those days had Vedic basis or not. > Any pramANams? > > Thanks, > dAsan, > Sampathkumaran >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 1999 Report Share Posted November 30, 1999 The writings of Sri Samkaracharya and Sri Ramanujacharya represent only a tiny fraction of what they knew or spoke about. If their writings are silent on the status of widows or the correctness of Sati, it does not diminsh from their glory. Everyone is not expected to speak on every topic. Plus, it is doubtful if Satis were forced. I read a book "India in the eyes of early Muslim travellers" in which a traveller clearly states that Satis were voluntary. Hinduism as such does not have such a blanket negative attitude towards suicide as the current judicial system (the anglo-saxon prejudices against suicide derive from the code of Emperor Justinian) although it is certainly looked down upon by our Smriti Nibandhakaras like Medhatithi. Form the Vedantic perspective, the "Wise do not grieve over the living or the dead" and so Sati cannot be justified. Vishal In a message dated 11/30/99 11:02:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, sampathkumar_2000 writes: << It still however leaves my question unanswered as to why great "achAryA-s" like adi Sankara or SriRamanujAchArya remained silent on the issue! Is it because they too like us in the present times felt that the Vedas did not have anything definitive to say on the subject? Is their silence reflective of what seems to us now as one of those examples of Vedic "equivocation" on the whole subject? "sati" was outlawed in India by the passing of the famous "Sarada Act", I think. Wonder if the transcripts of the parliamentary debates (if one can lay hands on them) leading to that historic enactment could possibly throw some light on this. adiyen really wonders. dAsan, Sampathkumaran >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 1999 Report Share Posted December 1, 1999 --- VAgarwalV wrote: > The writings of Sri Samkaracharya and Sri > Ramanujacharya represent only a > tiny fraction of what they knew or spoke about. If> their writings are silent > on the status of widows or the correctness of Sati,> it does not diminsh from > their glory. Everyone is not expected to speak on> every topic. ******************* adiyen agrees with Sri.Vishal. Both were "sanyAsis" and probably felt inhibited in holding forth on a subject that was intimately associated with "grihAstAshrama-dharma". In Sankara's case he was not even married. And in the short span of 32 years that he lived, he was probably in such a tearing hurry to accomplish more pressing tasks, I guess, than to find time to dwell on things like "sati" etc. In Ramanuja's case, though a 'grihAstA' for a while, he voluntarily discarded conjugal and familial ties in his mid-life. His wife was politely requested to separate and go back to her parents home and it is said that Ramanuja never saw her thereafter. Yes, I agree with Sri.Vishal Agarwal. You cannot expect Sankaracharya and Ramanujacharya to have had anything candid to say about a matter like "sati". > > Plus, it is doubtful if Satis were forced. I read a > book "India in the eyes of early Muslim travellers" in which a traveller clearly states that Satis were voluntary. Hinduism as such does not have such a blanket negative > attitude towards suicide as the current judicial> system (the anglo-saxon > prejudices against suicide derive from the code of> Emperor Justinian) > although it is certainly looked down upon by our> Smriti Nibandhakaras like > Medhatithi. > Form the Vedantic perspective, the "Wise do not > grieve over the living or the > dead" and so Sati cannot be justified. >> Vishal Here Sri.Vishal, I am afraid, I can't go all the way with you. Just because a deed is "voluntary" can it become morally defensible? If "voluntarysati" is permissible then I suppose one can argue for "voluntary" abortion too with equal weight? In vedantic perspective suicide is "atma-hatya" and it is considered "sin"... "pApam"... just as "sishu-hatya" or abortion of un-born foetus is also sin. >From the standpoint of the theory of "karma" also (which BTW is "vedantic perspective" too) suicide or "sati" would be indefensible. If a woman must suffer widowhood in her life, she must suffer or cope with the condition with courage, resignation and with faith in God. She has no right to re-write the rules of her "kArmi-c" destiny by choosing a sort of dubious martyrdom that is "a-shAstrA-ic" in adiyen's view. What do other members think? dAsan, Sampathkumaran Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Shopping: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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