Topic for Discussion

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas,

 

A Vedantin is concerned not just about bliss in the after life, but also

about minimizing misery in the current life (karmic life.) The dharma

shastras inform us of the (unique) optimal path; i.e., the single path

which results in misery minimization. We are all on paths that are

sub-optimal; the degree of sub-optimality varies according the degree of

delusion resulting from avidya karma. The degree of delusion resulting

from avidaya karma is subject to change; it is greatly influenced by the

place in which we reside. The place of residence determines the people

we interact with and the culture to which we are exposed, as such it

has a strong impact on the strengthening or weaking of the grip of

avidya karma (karma

that causes delusion.)

 

I am curious to find out the following :

 

1. are there any members of the net who actually accept, at least in

principle, even if they feel it is an ideal that is almost impossible to reach,

the path prescribed in the dharma shastras (for a brahmana) as optimal?

 

2. are there any members of this net who think that progress towards

the optimal path, no matter how slow, is a must?

 

ramanuja dasan,

Venkat

[Guest guest]

--- Venkat Nagarajan <NAGARAVE wrote:

> Dear Bhagavatas,

> A Vedantin is concerned not just about bliss in the

> after life, but also

> about minimizing misery in the current life (karmic

> life.) The dharma

> shastras inform us of the (unique) optimal path;

> i.e., the single path

> which results in misery minimization. We are all on

> paths that are

> sub-optimal; the degree of sub-optimality varies

> according the degree of

> delusion resulting from avidya karma. The degree

> of delusion resulting

> from avidaya karma is subject to change; it is

> greatly influenced by the

> place in which we reside. The place of residence

> determines the people

> we interact with and the culture to which we are

> exposed, as such it

> has a strong impact on the strengthening or weaking

> of the grip of

> avidya karma (karma

> that causes delusion.)

>

> I am curious to find out the following :

>

> 1. are there any members of the net who actually

> accept, at least in

> principle, even if they feel it is an ideal that is

> almost impossible to reach,

> the path prescribed in the dharma shastras (for a

> brahmana) as optimal?

>

> 2. are there any members of this net who think that

> progress towards

> the optimal path, no matter how slow, is a must?

>

> ramanuja dasan,

> Venkat

>

 

Dear Sri.Venkat,

 

Your questions are very thoughtful even though they

may appear very abstruse. I hope adiyen has correctly

understood you but I suppose you are asking if (1) our

"karma" will rule us or (2) whether we can exercise

some control over our destiny by consciously changing

some of the circumstances of our existence, like place

of residence, cultural moorings etc, as you have

mentioned.

 

adiyen is a novice in Vedanta so please don't take my

word for it when I say that the answer to your

question above is both YES and NO.

 

"karma" is like our genetic code... we are both with

it and to some extent it is pre-engineered or

pre-prorammed into our very being, our existential

constitution.

 

Nevertheless, we do not have to be fatalistic about

our "karma". If we do so become then it just as

foolish as it is to resign ourselves to a disease like

diabetes or cardiac malfunction on the grounds that we

are "genetically" pre-disposed to it.... "so what can

I do about it?".

 

Just as there are ways to cope and deal with our

genetic make-up... diet-regimen, proper life-style,

regular exercise, medication and surgery etc..... so

also there are plenty of ways that our Vedic/Vedantic

religion prescribes in order to cope and deal with and

eventually thwart and conquer our "karma". What are

these coping mechanisms? They are "karma", "gnyANa"

"bhakti" yoga-systems of Vedanta and "prapatti" yoga

of ramanuja-darsanam.

 

Now, you are the best judge to find out in which the

environment you are best able to observe and put into

practice the coping mechanisms of Vedanta. If you can

do it in the middle of Hollywood or Las Vegas, fine!

If you find you can't but probably need to move to

SriRangam or Mylapore then you must make the decision

and move out fast... real fast... because for everyone

of us the "metre" of life is ticking away....

 

Trust adiyen is able to clarify things to you at least

a bit!

dAsan,

Sampathkumaran

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas/Sri. Sampath,

 

The item attached below should explicate what I mean by the unique

optimal path specified by the dharma shastras. In this instance I am

about to quote an Advaitic Yogi. I do this mainly because he has dealt

with the dharma shastras, which are common to both (Advaita and

VisistAdvaita), so beautifully in English.

 

The dharma (prescribed codes of conduct) of a brahmana is

clear and is immutable. Performing a few of the prescribed duties (i.e,

not executing the full range but a small subset) is preferable to none, but

it is not optimal (I am assuming here that individuals desire misery

minimization in the karmic life in addition to mukti.)

 

1. Do bhagavatas feel misery minimization is desirable (i.e., can it

produce greater utility than the current life style)?

2. Assuming it is desirable, is it feasible?

3. If it is not feasible, is it the individuals defect or are the shastras

defective (i.e., they are no longer relevant)?

4. If It is the individuals defect, is it not a question of lack of courage or

desire to execute as opposed to inability to execute?

 

-I hope bhagavatas will freely answer these questions (I just want to get

an idea of how others view this.)

 

Source Advaitic Yogi:

 

"The only remedy for all the ills of the worlds, all its troubles is the return

of all Brahmins to the Vedic dharma. "

 

"The Lord himself has declared in the Gita that it is better to die abiding by

one's dharma that prosper through another man's dharma ("nidhanam

sreyah"). Brahmins who had seen no reason to change their life-style

during the long Muslim period of our history changed it during British rule.

Why?"

 

"Brahmins aquiring the habit of accumulating money is a recent

phenomenon. It is of course quite undesirable. The Brahmin relinquished

the duties of his birth-the study of the Vedas and performance of the

rites laid down in the Vedic tradition. He left his birthplace, the village, for

the town. He cropped his hair and started dressing in European style.

Giving up the Vedas, he took to the Mundane learning of the West. He fell

to the lure of jobs offered by his white master and aped him in dress,

manners and attitudes. He threw to the winds the noble dharma he had

inherited from the Vedic seers through his forefathers and abandoned all

for a mess of pottage. He was drawn to everything Western, science,

life-style, entertainment. "

 

"For thousands of years the Brahmin had been engaged in Atmic pursuit

and intellectual work. In the beginning all his mental faculties were

employed for the welfare of society and not in the least for his own

selfish advancement. Because of this very spirit of self-sacrifice, his

intelligence became sharp like a razor constantly kept honed. Now the

welfare of society is no longer the goal of his efforts and his intelligence

has naturally dimmed due to this selfishness and interest in things

worldly. He had been blessed with a bright intellect and he had the grace

of the Lord to carry out the duties of his birth. Now, after forsaking his

dharma, it is natural that his intellectual keenness should become blunted.

Due to sheer momentum the bicycle keeps going some distance even

after you stop pedalling. Similarly, though the Brahmin seeks knowledge

of mundane subjects instead of inner light, he retains yet a little

intellectual brightness as a result of the "pedalling" done by his

forefathers. It is because of this that he has been able to achieve

remarkable progress in Western learning also. "

 

"The Brahmin spoiled himself and spoiled others. By abandoning his

dharma he became a bad example to others. as a matter of fact, even by

strictly adhering to his dharma the Brahmin in not entitled to feel superior

to others. He must always remain humble in the belief that "everyone

performs a function in society; I perform mine". If at all others respected

him in the past and accorded him a high place in the society it was in

consideration of his selfless work, his life of austerity a, discipline and

purity. Now he had descended too such depths as to merit their most

abrasive criticism."

 

"The Brahmin, if he is to be true to his dharma, has to spend all his time in

learning and chanting the Vedas, in performance sacrifices, in

preserving the sastras, etc. What will he do for a living? If he goes in

search of money or material he will not be able to attend to his lifetime

mission-and this mission is not accomplished on a part-time basis. And if

he takes up some other work for his livelihood, he is likely to became lax

in the pursuit of his dharma. It would be like taking medicine without the

necessary diet regimen: the benign power gained by the Brahmin from

his Vedic learning will be reduced and there will be a corresponding

diminution in the good accruing to mankind from his work. This is one

reason why Brahmin alone are permitted by the sastras to beg for their

living. In the past they received help form the kings_ grants of lands, for

instance-in consideration of the fact that the dharma practised by them

benefited all people. But the sastras also have it that the Brahmins must

not accept more charity than what is needed for their bare sustenance.

If they received anything in excess, they would be tempted to seek

sensual pleasures and thereby an impediment would be placed to their

inner advancement. There is also the danger of their becoming

submissive to the donor and of their twisting the sastras to the latter's

liking. It was with a full awareness of these dangers that in the old days

the Brahmins practised their dharma under the patronage on the

rajas(accepting charity to the minimum and not subjecting themselves to

any influence detrimental to their idharma). "

 

"Whether or not the present Hindu society changes and whether or not it

can be changed, it is essential to have a class of people whose very

life-breath is Vedic learning. I do not speak thus because I am worried

about the existence of a caste called Brahmins. Nothing is to be gained if

there is such a caste and it serves only its own selfish interests. If a

caste called Brahmins must exist, it must be for the good of mankind. The

purpose of the Vedas, the purpose of the sound of the Vedas, is the

well-being of the world. That is the reason why I feel that, hereafter at

leaset, there ought not to be even a single Brahmin who does not chant

the Vedas. "

 

ramanuja dasan,

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas/Raman Kannan,

Namo Narayana.

Let me clear a misunderstanding before proceeding to the issue at hand. My

allegiance lies with Sri. Vedanta Desika and Vis'istAdvaita. It is not a

dogmatic allegiance

but one based on a rational conviction.

(Those members of the list who know me well know this.) I resorted to

quoting an Advaita Yogi on Dharma Shastras only because there is not much

difference of opinion on this matter.

 

I appreciate Sri. Raman's input; he is entitled to his opinion; however I do

not agree with him. Adviata and Vis'istAdvaita are mutually exclusive

explanations of the nature of reality. I also do not prescribe the notion

of

taking the good from all (i.e. eclecticism.)

(In my opinion eclecticism is worse than nihilism.)

 

I am not going into details (for details please view archives:posts on

equating mutually exclusive explanations of reality and posts on

classification of reals.)

 

It seems no one wants to answer the questions; the few individuals that

have responded have walked around the questions, rather than answering them

directly.

 

ramanuja dasan,

Venkat