human cloning and srimad bhAgavatam

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

While in Madras recently, adiyen took the opportunity

to meet with a well-known holy man of orthodox Vedic

tradtion. (It is not necessary to name him here on the

bhakti-list). Adiyen has the greatest regard for this

particular 'veda-vith' since he is not only a devout

and uncompromising Vedic practitioner but also a

person with astute knowledge of worldly matters too

("loukeekam").

 

Adiyen took the liberty to put to the holy man the

same set of questions on "human cloning" that had been

put out on the bhakti-list a few weeks ago. Adiyen was

not sure if the holy man would welcome such queer

questions on genetics and religion. But adiyen was so

surprised when the "veda-vith" not only listened

kindly to all of adiyen's questions with patience and

understanding but also with a great deal of youthlike

enthusiasm.

 

"My young friend", he said,"I am sure you do not

expect me to provide you with technical answers to

your questions. I am not a geneticist. Neither are

you. I have a bit of Vedic learning having spent more

than 40 years in Vedic pursuit. You have none. And yet

you ask questions of such a nature as will require a

respondent to have deep knowledge of not only the

Vedic truth but also of the science of genetics.

 

"Both of us have a little knowledge about clones. We

probably picked it all up from newspapers and like

publications. But our knowledge is incomplete. Because

our knowledge of human cloning is incomplete it

disturbs us deeply.

 

"Why? We don't really know. We believe that in some

future world where human clones will co-exist with

normal human beings, there are bound to arise profound

moral and ethical issues which will further complicate

the already chaotic human society we live in today.

The advent of human clones makes us extremely uneasy.

 

" You are asking me now: If the human soul can be

said to be 'cloned' then isn't such cloning a bit like

"srushti" or creation itself? Has Man finally become

God?"

 

"I ask you now: if creation of a clone or "srushti"

makes man God, then, by the same token, through

"destruction" (or "sarvanAshanam") also Man may hope

to become God? For, is Destruction not one of the

principal functions of God too? Two atomic bombs were

dropped in 1945. There was utter destruction in the

world then. Are we to conclude therefore that Man

became God by the utter Destruction wrought in

Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 

"My friend, Man's claim to Godhead is made no stronger

through human cloning... or "srushti"... than it is

through the awesome destruction his atomic bombs

wrought... "sarvanAshanam".

 

"Human cloning is not unknown to Vedic tradition. The

ancient 'sruti' has many references to clones. So what

we call the science of genetics is not entirely alien

to the Vedic system of thought. An entire chapter in

the 'Srimad Bhagavata purAna' has references to

clones, if only you cared to read it carefully".

 

Adiyen then asked the holy man,"Can you please explain

what is there about human clones in "Srimad

Bhagavatam?". The holy man smiled and said,"Ah, but

that's a long story!".

 

"Swami, I'd nonetheless like to hear it", I said.

 

"My friend, it's time now to perform our

'sandhyAvandanam'. So please go now and return

tomorrow if you are still interested in the quaint

"purAnic" stories of the Vedic variety."

 

The holy man then dismissed adiyen rather abruptly.

Adiyen suspected he secretly hoped I'd not bother him

again if asked to go away and return again.Adiyen

firmly decided I'd not oblige him. So I returned to

him the followind day to hear about clones in the

'Srimad BhAgavatam".

 

It's now time for adiyen's 'sandhyAvandanam'. So I

will continue this post tomorrow.

 

dAsan,

Sampathkumar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

http://im.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas

I do not understand the relevance of this subject to our basic issue of

SaraNAgathi. However, since it has generated a lot of animated discussions, I

may perhaps add my two cents worth.

 

After all, human cloning is not anything new.

 

First of all, does not the primordial Vedic Purusha Sooktham refer to the

creation of the various jeevAs from the various parts of the VirAt Purusha,

not necessarily the womb? If this cannot be taken as an example of cloning in

the modern scientific sense, there are several instances mentioned in the

Scriptures e.g:

 

1) The story of Vena in VishNu purANa:

When Vena, the monarch challenged the Rishis, and banned Vedic sacrifices,

they killed him with their power of Tapas. When monarchy disappeared, anarchy

took over the earth and life became miserable.

 

The rishis rubbed the dead king's thigh wherefrom came forth a being of the

complexion of a charred stake, with flattened features and of dwarfish

stature. "What am I to do?" cried he. The munis asked him to sit down

"Nishada" and thence his name was "NishAda" who genetically imbibed all the

evil qualities of Vena.

 

The munis then rubbed the right arm of the dead king from which friction was

engendered the illustrious son of Vena, named "Prithu", resplendent in

person, as if the blazing deity of fire had been manifested. He thus

inherited the good genes of his father, Vena who was relieved of the hell

called "Puth". Beholding in his right hand the mark of the discus of VishNu,

Brahma recognized a portion of that divinity in Prithu who became the

universal emperor and the earth came to be known as "Prithvi" after him.

(Amsam 1 of Vishnu PurANam)

 

2. Story of Oorvasi

We know how the Lord once took the AvatAra of Sishya and Guru in the form of

Nara and Narayana. VAmana PurANa has a legend about how the penance and

austerities of these riches so alarmed India who (not knowing that it was

Lord Prapanna who had taken those forms) sent nymphs to inspire them with

passion and disturb their devotions. NArAyaNa took a flower and placed it on

his thigh and rubbed it. Immediately, there sprang from it a beautiful nymph

whose charms far excelled those of the celestial nymphs and made them return

to India filled with shame. From her having been produced from the thigh

(Ooru) of the sage, she came to be known as "Oorvasi".

 

Vide also MahabhAratha 3.147,152, VAmana PurANa Chapter 2, VishNu purANA

5.34-37) and MahabhAratham 12.107, BhAgavata PurANa 4.13-15, VAyu PurAna

Chapter 62, Matsya PurAna Chapter 10, Padma PurANa 1.17, Hari Vamsa 1.2,

Brahma PurAna Chapter 4Atharva VEDa Samhita 8.10.22-23, Satapatha BrAhmaNa

5.3 and 5.4, Vishnu DharmOttara PurANa 1.109-110)

I endorse the statement of Krishna Susarla when he says in relation to

Maruts---

"... what obviously must have happened is that a new jiiva entered each new

clone as it was inadvertently created by Indra. Since Indra is not God, we

shouldn't be

disturbed by the fact that he "created" clones. It must have been the karma

of those jiivas to enter into cloned bodies in that fashion, and there is no

reason why this could not happen in the future as a result of scientific

procedures."

 

There are several more episodes which refer to such instances. The modern DNA

conclusions, the cloning of the Dolly etc seem to confirm the Vedic and

Puranic references to cloning mentioned above.

 

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas:

A few typographical errors have crept in my posting on the above subject.

Please make the following corrections.

For "riches" read "Rishis"

For "India" read "Indra" wherever it occurs.

For "Prapanna " read "NArAyaNa"

<< We know how the Lord once took the AvatAra of Sishya and Guru in the form

of

Nara and Narayana. VAmana PurANa has a legend about how the penance and

austerities of these *riches* so alarmed *India* who (not knowing that it

was

Lord *Prapanna* who had taken those forms) sent nymphs to inspire them with

passion and disturb their devotions. NArAyaNa took a flower and placed it on

his thigh and rubbed it. Immediately, there sprang from it a beautiful nymph

whose charms far excelled those of the celestial nymphs and made them return

to *India* filled with shame >>

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

[Guest guest]

> "Human cloning is not unknown to Vedic tradition. The

> ancient 'sruti' has many references to clones. So what

> we call the science of genetics is not entirely alien

> to the Vedic system of thought. An entire chapter in

> the 'Srimad Bhagavata purAna' has references to

> clones, if only you cared to read it carefully".

>

> Adiyen then asked the holy man,"Can you please explain

> what is there about human clones in "Srimad

> Bhagavatam?". The holy man smiled and said,"Ah, but

> that's a long story!".

>

> "Swami, I'd nonetheless like to hear it", I said.

 

What he may be referring to is the story of the birth of the Maruts. If

memory serves, the story goes something like this: Indra entered the womb of

Diti to slay her unborn child. Upon attempting to cleave the child into two,

he succeeded only in creating two duplicates of the original embryo. He

continued trying to cut each new embryo in half, vainly trying to kill them,

while all he accomplished was creating duplicate children of the original.

These children were truely clones in the biological sense, because clones

are obtained from mitosis of ancestor cells before they become

differentiated. Hence, each new product of Indra's cutting became a separate

child, and all together they became known as the Maruts.

 

Since each of the Maruts was a separate, new, living being, what obviously

must have happened is that a new jiiva entered each new clone as it was

inadvertently created by Indra. Since Indra is not God, we shouldn't be

disturbed by the fact that he "created" clones. It must have been the karma

of those jiivas to enter into cloned bodies in that fashion, and there is no

reason why this could not happen in the future as a result of scientific

procedures.

 

I don't recall the exact scriptural references to the above, but I think it

may be in Sixth Skandha. I can look for the exact verses if anyone is

interested, but I suspect the story is reasonably well known.

 

yours,

 

-- HKS

[Guest guest]

Hi

Can someone post the Original Question agian

(Please), coz i have someone who fits the discription

as Mr SampathKumar Discribed here,visiting our temple

and also i have a sister, who has a Phd under

genetics, and also working as a Sr,Scientist

specialized under Genetics, and i am sure i can make

them sit and certainly put thier brains together, and

come up with an answer for the question. !!!!

 

Thanks folks

Krishna

 

 

 

 

--- sampath kumar <sampathkumar_2000 wrote:

> Dear friends,

> While in Madras recently, adiyen took the

> opportunity

> to meet with a well-known holy man of orthodox Vedic

> tradtion. (It is not necessary to name him here on

> the

> bhakti-list). Adiyen has the greatest regard for

> this

> particular 'veda-vith' since he is not only a devout

> and uncompromising Vedic practitioner but also a

> person with astute knowledge of worldly matters too

> ("loukeekam").

>

> Adiyen took the liberty to put to the holy man the

> same set of questions on "human cloning" that had

> been

> put out on the bhakti-list a few weeks ago. Adiyen

> was

> not sure if the holy man would welcome such queer

> questions on genetics and religion. But adiyen was

> so

> surprised when the "veda-vith" not only listened

> kindly to all of adiyen's questions with patience

> and

> understanding but also with a great deal of

> youthlike

> enthusiasm.

>

> "My young friend", he said,"I am sure you do not

> expect me to provide you with technical answers to

> your questions. I am not a geneticist. Neither are

> you. I have a bit of Vedic learning having spent

> more

> than 40 years in Vedic pursuit. You have none. And

> yet

> you ask questions of such a nature as will require a

> respondent to have deep knowledge of not only the

> Vedic truth but also of the science of genetics.

>

> "Both of us have a little knowledge about clones. We

> probably picked it all up from newspapers and like

> publications. But our knowledge is incomplete.

> Because

> our knowledge of human cloning is incomplete it

> disturbs us deeply.

>

> "Why? We don't really know. We believe that in some

> future world where human clones will co-exist with

> normal human beings, there are bound to arise

> profound

> moral and ethical issues which will further

> complicate

> the already chaotic human society we live in today.

> The advent of human clones makes us extremely

> uneasy.

>

> " You are asking me now: If the human soul can be

> said to be 'cloned' then isn't such cloning a bit

> like

> "srushti" or creation itself? Has Man finally become

> God?"

>

> "I ask you now: if creation of a clone or "srushti"

> makes man God, then, by the same token, through

> "destruction" (or "sarvanAshanam") also Man may hope

> to become God? For, is Destruction not one of the

> principal functions of God too? Two atomic bombs

> were

> dropped in 1945. There was utter destruction in the

> world then. Are we to conclude therefore that Man

> became God by the utter Destruction wrought in

> Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

>

> "My friend, Man's claim to Godhead is made no

> stronger

> through human cloning... or "srushti"... than it is

>

> through the awesome destruction his atomic bombs

> wrought... "sarvanAshanam".

>

> "Human cloning is not unknown to Vedic tradition.

> The

> ancient 'sruti' has many references to clones. So

> what

> we call the science of genetics is not entirely

> alien

> to the Vedic system of thought. An entire chapter in

> the 'Srimad Bhagavata purAna' has references to

> clones, if only you cared to read it carefully".

>

> Adiyen then asked the holy man,"Can you please

> explain

> what is there about human clones in "Srimad

> Bhagavatam?". The holy man smiled and said,"Ah, but

> that's a long story!".

>

> "Swami, I'd nonetheless like to hear it", I said.

>

> "My friend, it's time now to perform our

> 'sandhyAvandanam'. So please go now and return

> tomorrow if you are still interested in the quaint

> "purAnic" stories of the Vedic variety."

>

> The holy man then dismissed adiyen rather abruptly.

> Adiyen suspected he secretly hoped I'd not bother

> him

> again if asked to go away and return again.Adiyen

> firmly decided I'd not oblige him. So I returned to

> him the followind day to hear about clones in the

> 'Srimad BhAgavatam".

>

> It's now time for adiyen's 'sandhyAvandanam'. So I

> will continue this post tomorrow.

>

> dAsan,

> Sampathkumar

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

> http://im.

>

>

------

> - aazhvaar, emberumaanaar, desikan, jeeyar

> tiruvadigale saranam -

> To Post a message, send it to:

> bhakti-list (AT) eGroups (DOT) com

> Visit http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/ for more

> information

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas,

 

I just wanted to explicate the following:

 

The indriyas and the manas are infinitesimal (immeasurably small) and as

such cannot be cloned. Thus, according to Vis'istAdvaita metaphysics,

the notion of perfect cloning is nonsensical. Hence any discussion

regarding cloning must be non-vedic in nature; i.e., it can never be in

accordance with Vedanta.

 

Ramanuja dasan,

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Ramanbil writes:

> Dear Bhagavatas

> I do not understand the relevance of this subject to our basic issue of

> SaraNAgathi.

 

I agree with Sri Ramaswamy. Unless we can find issues of direct

relevance to this group's stated purpose, I strongly suggest we

move on to discussing something else.

 

Thanks,

Mani

[Guest guest]

--- Mani Varadarajan <mani

wrote:

> Ramanbil writes:

> > Dear Bhagavatas

> > I do not understand the relevance of this subject

> to our basic issue of > > SaraNAgathi.

> I agree with Sri Ramaswamy. Unless we can find

> issues of direct> relevance to this group's stated

purpose, I strongly> suggest we > move on to

discussing something else.

> Thanks,

> Mani

 

Dear friends,

Adiyen had not even begun explaining the thread on

"cloning and Srimad BhAgavatam" but Sri.Anbil already

jumps to conclude that it is irrelevant to the group's

"stated purpose". And Sri.Mani also has thought it fit

to immediately second Sriman Anbil. And Sri.Venkat

reiterates he is absolutely sure that discussions on

"clones" is "un-Vedantic".

 

Impatience seems to be foreclosing out discussion here

with foregone conclusions.

 

However, since both the list-owner and the seniormost

member would like adiyen to keep quiet I think it is

only prudent adiyen humbly falls in line with their

desires.

 

So, Sir, adiyen withdraws any further discussion on

the thread "cloning and Srimad BhAgavatam".

 

Thanks,

dAsan,

Sampathkumaran

 

 

 

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

http://im.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas:

Let me hasten to clear a misunderstanding that my innocuous comment seems to

have created. I am not the one to bring down the gavel on any discussions.

Sri Sampathkumar wrote-

"However, since both the list-owner and the seniormost member would like

adiyen to keep quiet I think it is only prudent adiyen humbly falls in line

with their

desires.

I may be the "seniormost member" but perhaps "juniormost" in understanding.

All I said was -" I do not understand the relevance of this subject to our

basic issue of SaraNAgathi". I did not jump to any conclusions as alleged. It

would have been better if Sri Sampathkumar had pointed out in the first

place, the relevance of cloning to the basic issue SaraNAgathi, even a person

with such poor understanding like me could have appreciated the discussions.

Even if not relevant for the list, I will be interested to know the

conclusion you wish to arrive at, through private mail. Thanks for

understanding.

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone !!

Since the group's purpose is SaraNAgathi, i have a

quick question, its been in my mind for a long time,

!!!!

 

I personally know many of them who knew about

SaraNAgathi, and importance of it etc... Inspite of

all this, i still wonder why people still woulnd't

take up SaraNAgathi, Its the feeling that everyone is

gonna live forever and never expect to die the next

second, We all hope that we wake up the next morning

and see the bright sunshine, but what if we dont !!

and why is that some dont understand the concept of

SaraNAgathi !!!!!

 

Also after SaraNAgathi, doing Anyadevatha Aaradhana is

extremely Sin, that's like the direct Violation of the

principles of SaraNAgathi. Well to put in laymen

terms its like getting married, and cheeting on your

spouse, and betraying the trust between two. Well

SaraNAgathi,is simillar to that, its like the trust

and the blessing that we have from our Lord Sriman

Narayana, through our Acharya, that after SaraNAgathi,

and following the principles the soul will be elevated

to Moksham. Well if one betrays the principles,then

what is the solution for them. !!!!!!!!!!!

 

Krishna Kanumalla

 

 

 

--- Mani Varadarajan <mani

wrote:

>

> Ramanbil writes:

> > Dear Bhagavatas

> > I do not understand the relevance of this subject

> to our basic issue of

> > SaraNAgathi.

>

> I agree with Sri Ramaswamy. Unless we can find

> issues of direct

> relevance to this group's stated purpose, I strongly

> suggest we

> move on to discussing something else.

>

> Thanks,

> Mani

>

>

------

> - aazhvaar, emberumaanaar, desikan, jeeyar

> tiruvadigale saranam -

> To Post a message, send it to:

> bhakti-list (AT) eGroups (DOT) com

> Visit http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/ for more

> information

>

>

------

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> for party planning and

> supplies, with everything you need to throw the

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>

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> --

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>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

sampath kumar writes:

> Dear friends,

> Adiyen had not even begun explaining the thread on

> "cloning and Srimad BhAgavatam" but Sri.Anbil already

> jumps to conclude that it is irrelevant to the group's

> "stated purpose". And Sri.Mani also has thought it fit

> to immediately second Sriman Anbil. And Sri.Venkat

> reiterates he is absolutely sure that discussions on

> "clones" is "un-Vedantic".

>

> Impatience seems to be foreclosing out discussion here

> with foregone conclusions.

 

My feeling is that you would avoid this problem if you would

simply get to the point much earlier, instead of prolonging

a long-winded narrative. We haven't seen the point yet

because you haven't even gotten close to making one.

 

It's a simple solution!

 

Thanks,

Mani