waking/dream/deep-sleep

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

I am looking for a good analysis of the states of waking, dream and

deep sleep as understood in Ramanuja's system of thought. Is there a

good (authoritative) book (in English or with English translation) for this?

There is some discussion in the Sribhasya but since this is in the

context of refuting other arguements I am unable to extract a

coherent picture. Also please enlighten me with your own insights.

 

I want to give some examples of questions I have. If I understand

correctly, the jivAtma is characterised by the ability to know

(awareness), the ability to act, etc. (Also there is the fact of its

dependence on paramAtma which it may not realize at present.) Let us

just focus on awareness.

 

1. Is it correct to say the jivAtma is aware of the material world during

the waking state? Clearly we are aware of the external world. Even if we

shut our sense organs we are aware of thought in our brains. So it

seems that somewhere down the line the jivA must be in `touch with

matter' and be aware of it.

 

2. Is jivAtma aware of the material world during dreams? As far as

awareness goes dreams seem quite similar to the waking state, although

the experiences are random.

 

3. Is jivAtma aware of the material world during deep sleep? Maybe not,

but I'm not sure at all.

 

 

Such thinking makes me dizzy, and I want to hold on to the steady

wisdom of our acharyas. thanks.

 

-Kasturi

[Guest guest]

Since no one has volunteered an answer, I thought I'd take

a crack at it.

 

Kasturi Varadarajan writes:

>

> Dear friends,

> I am looking for a good analysis of the states of waking, dream and

> deep sleep as understood in Ramanuja's system of thought.

 

Hi Kasturi,

 

In these three stages, there is an inverse progression of

awareness.

 

(a) In the waking state, the jIva is aware of things both

inside and outside. Its mental faculties are aware

and able to perceive internal objects, and he is also aware

of the external world around him by virtue of its senses.

 

(b) While dreaming, the jIva is oblivious to the external

world but aware of the internal world. These internal

experiences, in Ramanuja's philosophy, are not "random".

They are yet another manifestation of one's karma, and

the objects within the mind are not illusory -- they

are very real objects in a different plane of consciousness

created by God in accordance with some aspect of the jIva's

karma.

 

The text cited as an authority here is from the

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (jyotir brahmana?) where

it is said "sa hi kartA" -- "He is the maker (of

these objects in the dreams)."

 

© In deep sleep, the only thing that the jIva is aware of

is the notion of "I" that constitutes the essence of its

very being. It is neither aware of other internal objects

nor any external, material objects. The same conscious

jIva persists in deep sleep with no consciuosness of

anything other than itself.

 

In this state of deep sleep, the Brahma-Sutras state that

the jIva is even unaware of the fact it is being embraced by

God (Brahman). Deep sleep is of utmost importance to the

embodied jIva because it is a way for Brahman, unbeknownst

to the jIva, to refresh the jIva as it goes through its

daily toils through samsAra. This is why, it is explained,

after a good night's sleep, one is thoroughly refreshed

and able to take on yet another day in this world.

 

ramanuja dasan,

Mani

[Guest guest]

Shri Mani wrote:

>In deep sleep, the only thing that the jIva is aware of

is the notion of "I" that constitutes the essence of its

very being. It is neither aware of other internal objects

nor any external, material objects. The same conscious

jIva persists in deep sleep with no consciuosness of

anything other than itself.

 

Dear Mani:

 

I have this question. Is there a difference between the state of deep sleep

and the jIva's state once it leaves the body. Also I am not sure that when

I am in deep sleep I am aware of the notion of "I". It is perhaps a

suggestion to think that way!

 

dAsan

 

Vijayaraghavan

Buffalo, NY

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

We hear about our acharya's have anubhavams of Perumal and Thayar coming to

their dreams and guiding them. Is it that they get darshans in Deep sleep and

able to feel the presence of divinity around them, whilst all others tend to be

in deep sleep as you had mentioned?

 

Dasan, Maniappan.

 

Mani Varadarajan Wrote:

 

 

 

 

Since no one has volunteered an answer, I thought I'd take

a crack at it.

 

Kasturi Varadarajan writes:

>

> Dear friends,

> I am looking for a good analysis of the states of waking, dream and

> deep sleep as understood in Ramanuja's system of thought.

 

Hi Kasturi,

 

In these three stages, there is an inverse progression of

awareness.

 

(a) In the waking state, the jIva is aware of things both

inside and outside. Its mental faculties are aware

and able to perceive internal objects, and he is also aware

of the external world around him by virtue of its senses.

 

(b) While dreaming, the jIva is oblivious to the external

world but aware of the internal world. These internal

experiences, in Ramanuja's philosophy, are not "random".

They are yet another manifestation of one's karma, and

the objects within the mind are not illusory -- they

are very real objects in a different plane of consciousness

created by God in accordance with some aspect of the jIva's

karma.

 

The text cited as an authority here is from the

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (jyotir brahmana?) where

it is said "sa hi kartA" -- "He is the maker (of

these objects in the dreams)."

 

© In deep sleep, the only thing that the jIva is aware of

is the notion of "I" that constitutes the essence of its

very being. It is neither aware of other internal objects

nor any external, material objects. The same conscious

jIva persists in deep sleep with no consciuosness of

anything other than itself.

 

In this state of deep sleep, the Brahma-Sutras state that

the jIva is even unaware of the fact it is being embraced by

God (Brahman). Deep sleep is of utmost importance to the

embodied jIva because it is a way for Brahman, unbeknownst

to the jIva, to refresh the jIva as it goes through its

daily toils through samsAra. This is why, it is explained,

after a good night's sleep, one is thoroughly refreshed

and able to take on yet another day in this world.

 

ramanuja dasan,

Mani

 

 

- SrImate raamaanujaaya namaH -

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Bhakti Group Members:

 

For those who like to dwell on the nature of the self and such other topics

I think the subject topic is quite intriguing. I thought the best way to

approach this topic would be to first understand what Science has to say

about the following states - Waking, Dream, Deep-sleep, unconscious, Coma,

brain dead etc.,

 

The question that often has intrigued me is: Even in deep sleep the jIva

loses awareness of the external world. JIva's only instrument to contact the

external world seems to be the manas and the indriyAs. For all practical

purposes, this implies that JIva minus the awareness of the bodily

instruments results in nothingness. This nothingness is replaced by the

so-called 'self-awareness' in the philosophical circles.

 

Can I request any of our learned members to provide a scientific explanation

of the different states as described above. That would provide a good

starting point. I must say that Mani did a wonderful job in explaining it

but I think it needs further elucidation.

 

Thanks.

 

dAsan

 

Vijayaraghavan

Buffalo, NY

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[Guest guest]

Dear members,

namaskArams. I was away the past 10 days. So catching up with the bhakti

mails. Please bear with me if this posting has come from me at an odd time.

> Sri Mani wrote:

> (b) While dreaming, the jIva is oblivious to the external

> world but aware of the internal world. These internal

> experiences, in Ramanuja's philosophy, are not "random".

> They are yet another manifestation of one's karma, and

> the objects within the mind are not illusory -- they

> are very real objects in a different plane of consciousness

> created by God in accordance with some aspect of the jIva's

> karma.

 

I am not clear how objects that appear in the dream are "real" even if the

plane of consciousness is different. How do we define the term "real" here and

hence "reality"? As Sri Vijayaraghavan has rightly said in one of his later

mails, thinking in the physical lines as a starting point to better understand

these profound ideas, I am tending to think of it, this way:

Incidents happening in our dreams in the swapna state are nothing different

from the thoughts that wander in us during jAgrat state. Dream is a result of

memory and intelligence. The memory feeds the intelligence and the latter cooks

up various incidents without proper control of itself. This is how we see some

queer cases where people get notion of past/future in their dreams and some

people solve problems in their dreams... So I tend to think that dream is

intelligence working on the information stored in the memory and hence things

are wholly imaginary and hence, (if my understanding of the term "real" is

correct), unreal.

It's as good as one remaining in jAgrat state itself and close his eyes and

think of a tree, say. When he thinks of a tree he just imagines the form of a

tree. This tree that appears to the thinker is verily imaginary and hence

illusory. Similarly the dream.

I am not clear about the purport of Sri Mani's describing it as "real". Sri

Mani, kindly explain more these thoughts. I think we need to define the term

"real" and "reality" here in a more explicit fashion.

Also, how can we attribute the creation of objects in dreams to God? It's

afterall, the ego-centered "I" that creates these incidents using intelligence

and memory, or atleast it appears thus. And what role does one's karma have to

play in an imaginary world of dreams?

 

Thanks so much. In this regard Sri M.S.Hari's indulgence in this topic is

most welcome.

 

adiyEn,

chandrasekaran.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagavatas:

In connection with the discussion on the subject, I invite your attention to

the following: which partly explains the phenomenon

 

"Are Dreams real?

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad categorically declares that dreams are real and are

created by God.

( i ) The question arises how can we conclude that they are created by God?

And, why not say that the jeevAtma itself could create the dreams?

The answer is, for one thing - The jeevAtma has no power of creation.

For another, if it had the power, it will not create unpleasant dreams for

itself.

We see tigers, fire, flood, etc., in which the dreamer appears as a victim.

No body would indulge in creating even in a dream such self-threatening,

self-destructive and unpleasant experiences to one's self.

( ii ) The dreams are real so far as the person who dreams is concerned and

real so long as the duration of the dream. That the objects in the dream

vanish when the person wakes up underlines the temporariness of the objects

and not that the experience itself was unreal. The joy, the fear, the thrill,

the excitement are all real for the person dreaming who may even be able to

remember and relate them subsequently.

( iii ) Why should God create dreams at all is the next question.

The answer is-The jeevAtma does some small good deeds and some small bad

ones. They are not big enough or significant enough to attract a palpable

reward or a palpable punishment. God gives the jeevAtma a little pleasure

through pleasant experiences in the dreams so that he is happy for the

duration of the dream enjoying pleasant things; Similarly, for the small bad

ones that are not significant enough, a mild punishment is imposed by the

Lord by making the jeevAtma feel the pain by dreaming unpleasant things and

unpleasant experiences for the duration of the dreams"

(Excerpts from my writing on "Intra - Religious - Distinctions")

Dasoham

Anbil Ramaswamy