[RE: Your question answered]

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Dear Shree Krishna Kalale,

 

Namaskaram. The experiencer is without doubt the Jeeva (swaroopa). Now

the contradiction arises how can the ever igjnyaanaananda swaroopa be the

experiencer (kartha & Bhookta) of even sorrow-full things in this

world. Here it has to be understood that the swaroopa igjnyaana and the

igjnyaa possessed by the swaroopa (ie., dharma bhootha igjnyaana) are

two different quantities. The dharma bhootha igjnyaana is an

inseparable attribute of the jeeva swaroopa (which is dharmi) and

undergoes contraction and expansion according to the jeeva's karma.

The jeeva by its ignyaana swaroopa can know itself ("I"/"Aham") and does

not require the dharma bhoota igjnyaana for this purpose but in Yoga,

it can realise itself (as "I") using dharma bhoota igjnyaana also.

The jeeva by its ignyaana swaroopa can also know its individuality

and it is alone(pratyak) distinguised from others. But for the Jeeva

to know other things other than itself ("I"), it has to use its

bharma bhootha igjnyana only. As this contracts and expands according

to Jeeva's karma(avidya), the jeeva realises sorrow-full things

according to its knowledge of anukulatvam and pratikulatvam. Something

realised by a Jeeva as bad may not look to be bad for other jeeva.

Something realised by a Jeeva as good may not be look to be good for

other Jeeva. This is because of the individual's dharma bhoota ignyaana

which is depandent on individual's karma. Therefore the ever ignyaana

aananda swaroopa is not undergoing any change though it is the

experiencer. Hope your question is further answered. If you have any

doubts, please do reply to me.

 

Regards

M.S.HARI Raamaanuja Daasan

==========================================================

 

Krishna Kalale <kkalale1 wrote:

The question is who is the experiencer? ie. jiva svarupa only since

dharmabhutajnana is not a knower! that means jivasvarupa undergoes

sorrows! how is this accounted when it should be always blissful

 

Krishna

 

 

M.S.HARI (Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari) [sMTP:mshari]

Tuesday, April 04, 2000 6:50 PM

kkalale1

Your question answered

 

Dear Shree Krishna Kalale,

 

Namaskaram. This is Hari Raamaanuja Daasan the Humble Servent of Shree

Vaishnavaas answering your question:

 

Your question regarding the controversy has deep value. Actually there

is not controversy and it is answered in the Shree Bhaashya. I will

present the answer in brief as follows: Out of the seven objections

(Sapta Vidhaanupaapathis) against Advaita raised by Shree Raamaanuja,

the Tirodhaanupapathi is relevant in this context. Advaita philosophers

say that the Brahman is covered by Aavidyaa and appears as Jiva. They

further say that the Brahman is without any qualities(attributes) and

is without a second entity. It is Swayamprakaasa and Kevala Jgnyaana

Swaroopa. The swayamprakaasatwa is not a quality of Brahman but it is

the Swaroopa(Reality) itself according to Advaitins as they do not

accept that Brahman has qualities. We Visistaadvaitians therefore

raise an objection to this that "If the Brahman according to Advaita

is to be covered by Aavidyaa and it appears as Jiva then, the aavidyaa

has to cover/remove the Swayamprakaasa of the Brahman. As advaitins

do not accept Swayamprakaasatva as quality of Brahman but the Brahma

Swaroopa itself, then Aavidyaa has to destroy the Brahma Swaroopa itself

and therefore the in Advaita, the Brahman itself is not to be present

when it apprears as Jiva! Therefore in Advaita "Nirguna ChinMaatram

Brahma" itself is contradictory!"

 

On hearing this objection by Visistaadvaitins, the Advaitins turn the

same objection on us! That is the Advaitins say that "The same is

the case in your philosophy also! You say that the Jeeva is Jgynaa

Aaananda Swaroopa. But you also say that it gets itself jailed in the

samsaara and forgets its swaroopa because of Kaarma. If kaarma can

obstruct/cover the jeeva and make it to forget its swaroopa and make it

to think that the Jeeva is the body etc., then the Jeeva Tatva itself

is destroyed and in your philosophy also, the same objection is valid.

If you refute it, then the same refutation will hold good for our

philosophy(advaita) also".

 

Raamaanuja says that the way in which Advaitins has answered by

turning the objection on us is like a joke. Their point does not hold

good. In our philosophy, the karma does not obstruct/cover the Jeeva's

swaroopa jgnyaana-aananda. But only obstructs/covers the Dharma Bhoota

jgnyaana which is an attribute/quality of the Jeeva and different from

its swaroopa jgnyaana. That is the reason why the Jeeva forgets its

self-realisation and thinks that "I am the body" etc.,. Its swaroopa

still remains untouched by the Karma. The Jeeva knows always himself

as "I" by its swaroopa jgnyaana. But for the jeeva to know other things

other than itself, it needs its Dharma Bhoota jgnyaana. It can know

itself as "I" by its Dharma Bhoota jgnyaana also but it is not needed as

a "Must". This is the reason why the according to the karma, its

dharma bhoota jgnyaana becomes contracted and the Jeeva without

proper realisations, becomes subjected to various joy and sorrows in

the material world. Still its swaroopa is jgnyaana-aananda-aNu-Shesha

only. This refutation cannot be taken by advaitins as answer for

the same objection rasied by us in the begining as they do not accept

that the Brahman has qualities/attributes. Thus I think I have answered

your question in brief. Please do get back to me if you have any

doubts regarding this. The controversy is thus solved.

 

Regards

M.S.HARI Raamaanuja Daasan.

=====================================================================

 

Krishna Kalale <kkalale1 wrote:

 

Dear sri Hari,

 

A question came up in the classes I wanted to find an answer from your

views.

 

1. Jiva is subjected to pleasure and pain as we experience in daily life.

Jiva is enveloped by manas and indriyas which form the sukshma sarira of

jiva. who is the knower, experiencer and agent (karta)? that is the jiva

itself. dharmabhutajnana cannot know it can only show the objects and

itself to jiva. hence when a person experiences pain, jivatama

experiences pain. On one hand jiva is said to be jnana ananda maya -

eternally blissful. How can one reconcile these two different views 1)

jiva experiences pain 2) jiva is eternally blissful! How to get over this

controversy.

 

Please try to shed somelight on to this question. My acharya Dr. NS

anantharangachar gave a particular answer. Iwanted to know from your end

since you have studied under great vidwans.

 

adiyen

Krishna Kalale

 

 

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