(unknown)

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Badri,

 

Well the following is not a real answer for your 2nd question but I

just want to share what I read as an answer for a similar question in

Thuglak, a Tamizh magazine. Certainly not from VisisTAdvaitha point of

view, but a general, logical, HUMOROUS answer for a question from a

dejected man.

 

Q. In Bhagavadh Gita , Krishna says, He will take avataar, whenever

dharmam declines, to destroy the bad and safeguard the good and the

dharma. If so why has he not taken His avataar yet.

 

Ans. (In Cho's usual sense of humour) You are right. He has to destroy

the bad but to safeguard the good, He is waiting for one to be born.

 

Though this is not a fitting reply to your question, it certainly

makes everybody to think.

 

Posted just in a lighter vein.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

 

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

(unknown)

Author: badri narayanan <b11_narayanan at JPINET

00/08/27 î?îÒ 9:05

 

 

Dear friends

I have the following doubts.

 

How do the vedas describe Narayana?.Is he described as

formless.If he is formless why do we associate him

with a particular form.For example having the

Changu,Chakra Gatha etc.If iam not wrong I think even

Krishna states in Gita that he is formless and takes

the human form only when dharma is in decline.

 

My second question as Krishna cleraly states that he

will take and Avathar when dharma is in decline,why is

he yet to take an Avathar.Does it mean that we have

Dharma prevailing all over the world ?

Regards

 

Badri

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Devotees,

 

I hope your friend's doubt is genuine. For a person who is diseased, there

is need for medicine. For example when we are not well, we take only bread.

But once we are healthy, we can go for an ice cream. Devas can drink soma

rasa. But we cannot. We have to follow the guidelines of acharyas for our

own good.

 

If it is case of ridicule, I hope not because he is your friend, tell him to

drink poison - Lord Siva did that or step on a snake like Lord Krishna. He

will be alright -

 

Yours humbly

Rajaram V.

 

 

 

Narasimhan Vijayaraghavan [wasimlara]

Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:38 PM

bhakti-list

(unknown)

 

 

Dear bhaktas,

Recently one of my friend asked me a question.He said that the

Lord consumes SomaRasam and said it is equivalent to drinks these days.I am

not able to answer him.Please forgive me if I am wrong.Please clarify

too.Thank you.

 

Your's

 

N.Vijayaraghavan.

 

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[Guest guest]

>"Narasimhan Vijayaraghavan" <wasimlara

>bhakti-list

>(unknown)

>Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:45:45 -0000

>

>Hello all,

> I would like to ask a fundamental question.Who are alwars and

>acharyas?.Do alwars have some divine power?.Where the alwars stand as per

>our sampradayam and what is their exact role?.Please clarify.

>Thank you.

>

> Your's

>

>N.Vijayaraghavan.

 

Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha:

 

I am gita(vaidhehi),participating in the discussion for

the first time. I have no knowledge of the vedas(with the exception

of the Bhagavad Gita). I classify myself as "Arangan aidyaarkku adiyan".

Hence my theme is Praptti/Bhakti. I would like to say a few words about

Alwars.

 

When you say sampradayam, I do not know what exactly you mean. But

I feel that certain sampradayams have been introduced/added later other

than the sampradayams introduced by Ramanuja thro' simhasanathipadi's.

ALwars are great saints who basked in the luxury of praising Lord

Narayana and got the vision of HIM. Esp. you should read Nammazhwar's

one pasuram(7.2 Thiruvoimozhi) "Kangulum pagalum kann thuyil ariyaall"

in which Nammazhwar imagines himself as Nayaki and Krishna as the Nayakan

and pines for HIS love. It's a beautiful pasuram. The moment

you start chanting the Prabhandam,you feel vatsalya towards everybody.

Actually there are twelve azhwars and their combined and yet separate

works constitute the Naalaayira Divya Prabhandam. According to some people

Madhurakavi is not considered as Azhwar since every other 11 Azhwars sang

about the God but Madhurakavi sang about the Nammazhwar.

One should not chant Nammazhwar's Thiruvoimozhi without chanting

Madhurakavi's "Kanninun siru thaambu". Some pasurams are easy to

chant to start with and then can go to tougher ones. If you're

interested I can suggest some pasurams.

 

Azhwars role is nothing othen the surrender to GOD. The philosopher

Lord Krishna teaches Arjuna all dharamas and then tells him to give

up all dharmas and surrender to HIM alone and HE will release Arjuna

from all sins and give him eternal happiness(Sarva dharman parithyagya

mam ekam sharanam vraja,aham thvam sarvapapebhyo mokshaishyami ma sucha in

the last chapter of BG and says that HE is attainable only through

undivided Bhakti in the ninth chapter). Azhwars are the embodiment of

pure love for GOD. Can you think of Narayana alone all the time? When

one can think of HIM in that aspect,one will surely mingle with HIM.

Examples are Andall,Mira,Azhwars,...When you chant these great saints

names,you are chanting the name of Narayana in essence.

 

In my opinion, veda is a little dangerous because there are different

schools of thought. It's upto the individual following one particular

school of thought. Ramanuja Acharya has written commentaries on Brahma

sutra,vedanta sara,BG and also many others. But Ramanuja was not happy

because that didn't include the concept of Prapatti in the whole sense.

Then he writes Sharanagatha Gadhyam all that. I know very very little

of different philosophies(of Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhwa) and I found

perfect logic only in the Ramanuja's philosophy(Shankara contradicts

his own statements in many places and I don't want to say anymore on this

as it may offend people who follow his philosophy). Mathematically there is

no one-one relation between God and knowledge. God represents knowldege but

knowledge need not necessarily represent HIM. In short,

a Bhaktiyogin will have the knowledge of karmayogin and gyanayogin but

other way round may not be true.

 

Since this is Dhanur masam(Marghazhi) let us all chant Thiruppavai. They say

that a person who doesn't know Thiruppavai is not worthy to

live in this world(it comes in Vaazhi thiru namam as Kodai Thamizh

Aiaindu aindum ariyatha maanidarai vaiyam summappadum vambu). She

conquered and ruled Lord Sri Ranganatha and HE himself named her ANdall.

 

I sincerely ask the devotees for forgivenness incase I have made any

errors in this.

 

Azhwar Thiruvadigalle Sharanam

EmPerumaanaar Thiruvadigalle Sharanam

Gita

 

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Srimathae Ramanujaya Namaha

Srimad Seethrama Sadgurvae Namaha

 

Dear Shri Bhooma,

 

I remember Sri Vaishnava Sri (located in Srirangam) conducts formal

correspondence courses on Sri Vaishnava Philosophy and in Divya Prabhandas..

 

I don't have their address right now but will get back with the address in

a couple

of days. Some of the esteemed members of this group should be having the

address..

 

 

dasAn

Badrinath. D

 

 

 

 

G Bhooma [gbhooma]

Thursday, 28 June 2001 10:00 AM

bhakti-list

(unknown)

 

 

I am interested in a formal study of Nalayira Divya

Prabandam and Vaishnavism. I enquired with Madras

University regarding their MA Vaishnavism course.

Unfortunately, attendance is compulsory and I am not

in a position to attend classes.

I would be grateful if anyone can suggest reference

books and where I could get them. Also if any

structured curriculum is available.

Bhooma

 

 

 

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http://personal.mail./

 

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[Guest guest]

damodara svarup <damodarsvarup wrote:

 

Shree damodara

I will try to explain to the best I can without going overboard. I

would not mind Shree Mani stepping in to close the discussion

whenever he feels that the discussion is beyond the scope of this

list. I would strongly recommend those who are interested the

reference I gave in Brahmasutra notes particularly the adhyaasa

Bhaasya where these aspects are extensively discussed in the IIIrd

chapter. One should also read the second chapter that discusses the

difference between loukika anumaana and shaastriiya anumaana.

 

-------------

I have some doubts which arise from the Sadanada's

explanation.

 

-Perception of this world, as well as one who

perceives and that which is perceived is only due to

illusion

-----------------

Unfortunately illusion is the incorrect translation of vyavyahaarika

satya and the concept of maaya in advaita. I do not have any better

word either. Is bangle or ring - at the various names and forms of

golden ornaments - are the real or illusion? From the transactional

purposes, they are indeed real - bangle is different from ring and

ring from chain. What one does with a ring is different from what one

does with bangle. Name is to a form and form is an attribute -

utility is for those names and forms. They are real in their

relative sphere of reference - this is vyavahaara or transactional

purpose. But in through the form the essence is nothing but gold.

Hence what is relatively real is different from absolutely real -The

definition that is given in advaita - trikaala abhaaditam satyam -

that which remains non-negatable in three periods of time is the

absolute real.

 

In your above statement, world is perceived by perceiver. But

perceiver is not illusion. He is the conscious entity that remains

eternal as the essential conscious entity- this is true even in

VishishhTa advaita. The conscious entity cannot be negated

(abhaadhitam) at any time since 'he' has to be to there even to do

the negation process. Hence Krishna's declaration - na enam chindanti

shastraaNi .. etc-

 

Even in VishishhTaadvaita - in fact I should say in all Vedic

religions adhyaasa or error is accepted to some degree - the

fundamental error is I am the body or mind or intellect - the

equipments that I possess. The whole teaching of Giita starts

because Arjuna has this fundamental problem identifying one self

which is a chaitanya vastu with the jada vastu - matter, the body,

mind and intellect as I am this - this being an object and I being

a conscious entity. Once one identifies I am this body and the other

body belongs to my teacher or pitaamaha etc all the attachments and

associated sufferings result - that was Arjuana's problem and our

problem too. The cause for this error in both philosophies is again

attributed to 'aj~naana' or ignorance. The ignorance is anaadi or

beginningless, as it has to be. The liberation therefore is removal

of this ignorance. Up to this is common in both.

 

The nature of the ignorance is perceived differently in each system.

Bhagavaan Ramanuja emphasizes the 'bhakti ruupaka j~naana' while

Shankara emphasizes 'swa swaruupa j~naana' or aatma swaruupa j~naana

as all in all, which according Ramanuja that is only one part while

the other part involves the 'paramaatma swaruupa j~naana' -

understanding of shesha-sheshii - or organic relation between jiiva

and paramaatma. In the paramaatma j~naana, aatma swaruupa j~naana is

inclusive since He is all pervading as antaryaami - that is the

organic relation or a-dvaita aspect in the vishishhTa a-dvaita.

 

-------------------

-Individuality of the jiva, as well as of Iswara is

also only perceived due to the covering of illusion

--------------------

 

One has to be very careful here. Illusion is does not give true

import of the word maaya used in advaita- let us use instead the word

maaya - it does not really cover anything. - it is 'as though

covering' - it is an explanation to explain the currently perceived

'vyavahaara satya'. From the absolute level even this explanation

falls flat since there is no need to explain anything where there is

only Brahman.

 

Let us pose a question to ourselves - Why and how does a conscious

entity- I or you damodara, anyone mistake ourselves as I am this body

- I am so and so born on such a data etc. We know that the body is

matter or jadam and we are not the body and we are chaitanya vastu-

How does this identification of chaitanya vastu with achaitanya vastu

takes place? - avidya is accepted by both philosophies - avidya in

advaita involves not knowing our true nature -When I do not know who

I am, I take myself as what I am not - That this happens is our

experience and our fundamental problem - how this aj~naana leads to

vikshepa - or projection or taking myself what I am not is considered

as part of the 'adhyaasa' or error. - Shankara defines adhyaasa as -

satya asatya mithuniikaraNam - mixing up of real and unreal - 'I am

this" - this being body (sthuula or suukshma etc)- 'I am' part is

real and 'this' part is unreal and mixing up these two as one entity

is the fundamental error for all of us. - concepts of 'aarvaraNa'

and 'vikshepa' associated with avidya are based on - shaastriiya

anumaana - logical deductions based on shaastra statement as ' aham

brahma asmi' to 'aham jiiva asmi' notion.

 

------------------

If Brahman is One without a second, what is the

shelter and origin of illusion?

--------------------

 

Please understand even this maaya itself in the realm of 'maaya' - it

is a concept brought in to account the apparent disparity between

what is the absolute truth to what is our day to day experience.

Please note that avidya or ignorance is anaadi in both philosophies.

If something real one can talk about 'shelter' and origin etc. -

trikaaala abhaaditam satyam is how advaita defines as absolutely real

- if the illusion gets dissolved in moksha then it is bhaaditam.

 

One can either accept this as it is as product of anaadi avidya or

resort to another explanation as paramaatma liila - either way - the

buck stops there. If you are comfortable with the later explanation

that is fine, but the fact remains that these are only trying to

account what is in the state of ignorance to that which is beyond the

ignorance.

 

-------------

How illusion which is nonintelligeble concept in

eternity can have any influence on Brahman which is

the ultimate Reality?

--------------------

 

You are absolutely right here - In fact you are essentially

presenting Bhagavaan Ramanuja's puurvapaksha - particularly the seven

untenables of avidya as discussed in advaita. This requires an

exhaustive analysis which I am planning to present when I am done

studying Shree Bhaashya. I must say - Shree Madhusuudana saraswati

addresses many of these as well as objections raised by post-Shankara

philosophers in his 'advaita siddhi'

 

But to answer in brief - there is none. Brahman is absolute reality -

one without a second. All the explanations are not at paaramaarthika

level but only valid at vyavahaarika level. The fact remains that I,

a chaitanya vastu, taking myself as achaitanya vastu and you can pose

yourself a question how is this non-intelligible jadam having

influence on the ultimately real - me the chaitanya vastu. The

influence is only as long as I take myself or identify myself with

the jada padaartham - If I stop identifying it what influence it will

have in my real nature. In eternity there is only one - and there is

nothing else to raise the issue of any influence.

 

Most of the questions and ambiguity arises when one tries to have one

leg in vyavahaara and the other leg in the paaramaarthika level and

get mixed up in these two references where one is in the realm of

ignorance and the other is knowledge.

------------------

Even if illusion has any influence on Brahman, still

in order to appear as this universe, Brahman needs

either to divide, becomes variegated or transform

which is not possible?

---------------------

 

True - Hence Brahman does not divide or transform or become

variegated. Brahman remains as Brahman even pure and untransformed.

- That is advaita.

 

Now you are asking creation - how does that occur. Since I and you

are seeing this creation we are asking how did this come into

existence. Hence creation is there for those are who are perceiving

- the perception involves - perceiver, perceived and perceiving -

before we start questioning the validity of the perceived, which is

the universe and the cause for it - one needs to enquire the validity

of perceiver and perceiving. - That is why all Vedantic achaarya-s

address first the epistemological issues before they discuss the

ontological issues.

 

This is very involved topic - not that I do not want to discuss this

but I have written on these topics extensively on advaitin list. I

would recommend those interested to study these from achieves -

particularly my discussion with Shree Nanda Chandran posted a month

ago. If anyone has any problem in identifying or down loading it,

feel free to write to me and I will mail the relevant discussions.

---------------------------

Is there any scriptural proof which says that

individuality of consciousness, either of the jiva

(infinitesimal) or Iswara (unlimited) is just due to

covering of illusion and not its eternal intrinsic

characteristic?

----------------------

The four mahavaakya-s that advaita emphasizes are from scriptures only.

 

Let me address this briefly - There are pure advaitic statements and

dvaitic statements in upanishats. Shankara takes the advaitic

statements are primary and dvaitic statements secondary. Madhva

takes the other way around. Bhagavaan Ramanuja unifies these two as

self-consistent organic relation of unity in diversity.

 

One should study all and choose what appeals to one heart. If you do

not like any one of the explanation - you can present your own.

Remember we are not reinventing the wheel. We are blessed by many

great achaarya-s who have addressed these issues from various angles

and many of these questions were asked and answered in the past.

There is nothing wrong to ask again for ones understanding but it

helps a lot to study what or how other achaarya-s have addresses

these questions.

 

----------------

Also I am not able to understand the example given by

Sadananda about the gold and ornamets, which implies

substance and form to be reality and illusion.

Both substance and form are real concepts and I do not

understand this comparison were form is identified

with illusion.

-------------------

Let us look at this way.

 

Gold is real

Bangle made of gold is also real.

 

Is there a difference between these two realities? - Is bangle same

as gold or different from gold? Bangle is only a form for that gold

for which I give a name 'bangle' - Bangle can be destroyed and can be

made into a ring - then bangle is gone and it is ring now. But gold

is not destroyed in this transformation - gold remained as gold -

only form and name changed- as bangle it is gold and as a ring it is

only gold - gold remained as gold in all these transformations.

Hence we already have to degrees of realities. One that changes and

one that does not in these transformations. Or more correctly one

that remains the same untrasferable, eternally remaining the same -

absolutely non-transferable - while the other appears and disappears

as forms with names associated with forms. Even though we may call

both gold and bangle are real - one can appreciate the difference in

the degrees of realities - one that does not undergo any

transformation and the other that keeps changing. Yet in all these

transformation if there are two separate entities - bangle and gold -

In that case you can have the bangle and I will take the gold anytime.

 

It is the glory of gold to be able to exist in many forms yet still

remains as just one entity 'gold'. By the by these example are from

Ch. Up only - teaching of Uddalaka to his son Swetaketu.

 

A word about illusion and delusion (moha)- illusion is seeing the

plurality and delusion is taking the perceived plurality as reality.

The problem comes from the second. Giita addresses the second aspect

- Arjuna in the end declares - nashhTo mohaH - now because of your

teaching I lost the delusion - taking the nama and ruupa as

absolutely real - there is my teacher and my pitaamaha and these are

my kith and kin , how can I kill them etc. These names and forms

have only relative reality. That is what vyavahaara satya is all

about.

-------------------

I can agree that advaita as a concept might be true,

but in my heart i cannot accept this to be

attributless onenness - but rather organic unity.

----------------

Damodar - I am very happy for you. I consider these as working

hypotheses and one has to proceed using these to discover oneself

what is the real truth. Shankara says so or Ramanuja says so etc

does not mean much until I inquire what is the ultimately the truth -

For that only nidhidhyaasana emphasized by both achaarya-s is

issential.

 

God bless you and proceed by all means in the direction that appeals

to your heart - there lies what is good for you. If the truth is one

- we all end up there.

 

yo yo yaam yaam tanur bhaktaH shraddha archtum icchati|

tasya tasya achalaam shraddham tam eva vidadhaami aham||

 

Whoever and whoever and in whatever and whatever form one worships me

with devotion in that and that form I provide him unvagaring faith.

This includes the path that one takes up towards Him.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

>

>Yours sincerely,

>damodar

>

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[Guest guest]

Sri Venkata Gurave Nama:

 

Smt. Raji,

 

1. The words, "Na me bhakta pranassyati" is from the Jagathacharya, Sri

Krishna in Sri Bhagavat Gita in Chapter 9 when he explains the

Bhakthi Yoga to his favorite disciple Arjuna.

 

In this chapter Sri Krishna explains the need for single minded devotion

to Him, and explains the mode of his Bhaktha, (He says his Devotee has no

fear , he sees both good and bad in the same way, etc. etc...)

 

Finally he says, My devotee would never fail..... (Na me bhakta

pranassyati"), the literal meaning though is 'My devotee would not die'.

However, the inner meaning as interpreted by Acharyas is that , 'He

ensures that His devotee are always rescued by Him and He fulfills his

devotee's want, ie, Nitya Kimkaram, or unfettered service to His Holy

feet, and Hence His devotee would never fail.)

 

2. The Pavai Nonbu (Vratham) was vratham adopted by unmarried Women to

get married. (I am not sure about which Puram that talks of it).

Sri Andal uses this as an excuse to beg for doing Nitya Kaimkaryam(again,

unfettered service to His Holy feet).

Observing any vratam, (except , Ekadasi Vratham)is not sanctioned by

Poorvacharyas of Sri Vaishnavas. Hence you do not need to worry about

them. During the month of Margazhi, we can dwell on the inner meanings of

Tiruppavai and use that opportunity to reinforce our thoughts towards

Serving Lord Krishna.

 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Regards

 

KM Narayanan

 

 

 

 

 

RAJI SRIDHAR <sridharaji on 11/23/2001 12:09:14 AM

 

bhakti-list

cc:

 

(unknown)

 

 

Pranams to all

 

Can anyone tell me more about

 

1. "Na me bhakta pranassyati"

 

2. How to do "Pavai Nonbu"

 

raji sridhar

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

an interesting question!. IT just depends on the strength of a person's

heart! if one has great bhakti to srimannarayana or sri Krishna, strong

arguments from advaitic perspective cannot change them or hurt them. Hence

a person needs to be careful not be swayed by the logic of advaita if one

thinks that he/she is not capable of mentally solving all the riddles that

may occur while reading advaita. However such a process can either give

clarifications to all unasked or hidden questions in the mind or wrongly

influence the weak minded to get influenced by advaita!

 

However, sribhasya takes advaita as prima facie view before it gives its

arguments against it. Hence a good study of advaita is necessary to

understand visistadvaita. However, sri Ramanujacharya does mention, if one

cannot deal with the complexities of arguments of these terse kind in the

bramhasutras, one should resort to simpler devotional works on the lord,

like vishnupurana or sharanagati gadyam etc.

 

Since, the task of sri Ramanujacharya was to establish "saguna bramha

paratva" *( absoluteness of saguna bramha), mayavada khandana (refutation of

maya school), most of his works deal with a great deal of advaita

refutation. I guess historically gaudiya vaishnavism nurtured the thought

that involving deeply in interscholastic arguments is a waste of time and

spending one's time in pure bhakti to sri krishna is the best method. Even

in visistadvaita several people feel that one should spend all his/her time

in service of the lord.

 

It depends on stage of evolution of the mind of the seeker.

 

adiyen krishna kashyap

 

 

rembert lutjeharms [rembert_lutjeharms]

Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:40 AM

bhakti-list

(unknown)

 

 

Dear ,

 

Recently i read on the ramanuja.org website that "To

understand Visishtadvaita, one must also understand

Advaita."

It would be nice if someone could clarify this

further. I do not know very much of Ramanuja's works.

I know that Gaudiya vaisnavas say that one should not

at all read the Sariraka-bhasya of Adi Sankara. This

seems completely opposite in the Sri sampradaya. Is

this so?

 

Thank you,

rembert

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:

Dear Sri Krishna,

Well written.

It just reminded me of Swamy desikan's prabhandham from Adhikarasangraham

(on SrI Alavandhar):

 

neeLa vandhu inRu vidhivagaiyaal ninaivonRiya naam/

meeLavandhu innum vinai udambu onRil vizhundhu uzhalaa(dhu)

ALavandhaar ena venRu aruL thandhu viLangiya seer/

Alavandhaar adiyOm padiyOm ini alvazhakkE.

 

After taking so many countless births, We, (dAsars (servants) of Sri

Alavandhar), who have been blessed to be born (due to the limitless,

unconditional grace of the Lord Sriya: Pathi Sriman Narayanan) as

Srivaishnava in this birth, and have realized and taken up the prapatti

maargam (due to again the nirhEthuka krupA of the Lord), who are bequeathed

with such Great Acharyan – YamunAchAryan, the learning of whose SrI sukthis

enable us to know the tatvatrayam crystal clear and upAyam and upEyam (means

and goal) perfectly, and keep us reminded of the same always, will never

ever read (hereafter) works of those who belong to other religions. – Says

Swamy Desikan.

Acharyan ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam

Regards

Narayana Narayana

ADiyEn Narayana dAsan madhavakkannan

"Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1

"rembert lutjeharms" <rembert_lutjeharms, "bhakti-list"

<bhakti-list>

RE: (unknown)

Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:43:22 -0800

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Vijay Iyengar,

 

Gaudiya vaishnvas follow achintya bhedabheda doctrine, which has more

similarities to Vadagalai Srivaishnavism than Dvaita. however, Madhvacharya

is an acharya in their lineage. their lineage does not have any

srivaishnava acharyas, except gopala bhatta goswami who was a srivaishnava

who got converted to gaudiya vaishnavism after sri chaitanya mahaprabhu.

 

adiyen krishna

 

 

VIJAY THUPHAL NAGARAJA IYENGAR [vijay.iyengar]

Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:23 PM

rembert lutjeharms; bhakti-list; Krishna Kashyap

Re: (unknown)

 

 

Hi Krishna,

I have a basic doubt.

Do Gaudiya Vaishnavas follow Dwaitha Philosophy.

Viji

-

"Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1

"rembert lutjeharms" <rembert_lutjeharms; "bhakti-list"

<bhakti-list>

Wednesday, January 23, 2002 12:13 AM

RE: (unknown)

 

> an interesting question!. IT just depends on the strength of a person's

> heart! if one has great bhakti to srimannarayana or sri Krishna, strong

> arguments from advaitic perspective cannot change them or hurt them. Hence

> a person needs to be careful not be swayed by the logic of advaita if one

> thinks that he/she is not capable of mentally solving all the riddles that

> may occur while reading advaita. However such a process can either give

> clarifications to all unasked or hidden questions in the mind or wrongly

> influence the weak minded to get influenced by advaita!

>

> However, sribhasya takes advaita as prima facie view before it gives its

> arguments against it. Hence a good study of advaita is necessary to

> understand visistadvaita. However, sri Ramanujacharya does mention, if

one

> cannot deal with the complexities of arguments of these terse kind in the

> bramhasutras, one should resort to simpler devotional works on the lord,

> like vishnupurana or sharanagati gadyam etc.

>

> Since, the task of sri Ramanujacharya was to establish "saguna bramha

> paratva" *( absoluteness of saguna bramha), mayavada khandana (refutation

of

> maya school), most of his works deal with a great deal of advaita

> refutation. I guess historically gaudiya vaishnavism nurtured the thought

> that involving deeply in interscholastic arguments is a waste of time and

> spending one's time in pure bhakti to sri krishna is the best method.

Even

> in visistadvaita several people feel that one should spend all his/her

time

> in service of the lord.

>

> It depends on stage of evolution of the mind of the seeker.

>

> adiyen krishna kashyap

>

>

> rembert lutjeharms [rembert_lutjeharms]

> Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:40 AM

> bhakti-list

> (unknown)

>

>

> Dear ,

>

> Recently i read on the ramanuja.org website that "To

> understand Visishtadvaita, one must also understand

> Advaita."

> It would be nice if someone could clarify this

> further. I do not know very much of Ramanuja's works.

> I know that Gaudiya vaisnavas say that one should not

> at all read the Sariraka-bhasya of Adi Sankara. This

> seems completely opposite in the Sri sampradaya. Is

> this so?

>

> Thank you,

> rembert

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Everything you'll ever need on one web page

> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

> http://uk.my.

>

>

> -----------------------------

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> Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/

>

>

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>

>

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>

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> -----------------------------

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> Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Background: Sri VenakatanAthan asked an interesting question

in the MalOlan Net . This might be of interest to

members of other groups as well :

 

Question: Are the Dhivya Prabhandha Paasurams of 108 dhivysa desa

EmperumAns on Uthsavars or Moolavars ? Here is an

attempt to answer that question :

 

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

Srimathe Nigamantha Mahadesikaya Nama:

 

Dear Sri Venakatanathan:

 

Among the Prabhandhams on the 108 dhivya Desams (DD),

two ( Parama Padham and ThiruppArkkadal )

CAN have only Moolavar . It is also beyond the perception

by our eyes . They are beyond prakruthi mandalam.

 

Among the remaining 106 DD , AzhwArs have performed

MangaLAsAsanam on Uthsavars AND Moolavars in

number of dhivya Desams . For instance at

Oppiliappan Koil , Ponnappan is the name for Uthsavar.

ThiruviNNagarappan is the name for Moolavar.

Swamy NammAzhwAr has performed MangalAsAsanam for both.

There are in total 5 Murthys at ThiruviNNagar

sung by Swamy NammAzhwAr . The other three are

Mutthappan , MaNiyappan and Yennappan . Among the three,

one is only in the form of Uthsavar , standing

next to Uthsavar , Ponnappan. .The other two have both

Moolavar and Uthsavar at separate sannidhis outside

the main garbhagraham . Thus there is a mixed MangaLAsAsanam

in the Famous Paasuram on ThiruviNNagar : "YennapanekkAyihuLaai"

ThiruvAi Mozhi 6.3.9

 

Some time , the MangaLAsAsanam is for the KshEthram.

In most of SiRiya Thirumadal and Periya Thirmadal ,

the MangaLAsAsanams are for KshEthrams:

 

(Examples) : kArAr Kudanthai Kadihai Kadanmallai

yErAr pozhil Soozh Idaventhai Neermalai

seerArum MaalirumchOlai ThirumOhUr

pArOr puhazhum vathari Vadamathurai

--Kaliyan SiRiya Thirumadal : 2673( 72-74)

Here MangaLAsAsanam is for 9 Dhivya Desams .

 

Same situation is met with in PeRiya Thirumadal.

 

Some times the uthsavar and Moolavar are

saluted as DasAvathAra /Vibhava Moorthys

like Raama and KrishNA.

 

Some of the Paasurams are UpadEsams and wont have

anything to do with the dhivya Desams at all.

 

In Thirukkuruhoor , The Uhtsavar and Moolavar's naamams

are AdhippirAn and Polinthu NinRa PirAn respectively.

Swamy NammAzhwAr performs individaul MangaLAsAasanams

to each of them .

 

In Thirukkudanathai , Sawmy NammazhwAr will refer

to AarAvamudhan as " Kudanthai kidanthAi" . He is

therefore referring to Mooavar only , since the ArchA moorthy

is in standing posture. In a similar vein, Swamy NammAzhwAr

refers to the seated posture of Moorthy at SrIvaramangai

( SrIvaramangala nahar yERi VeeRRirunthAi Unnai--) .

At KaazhicchIrAma ViNnagaram , the MangaLAsAsanam is

for Moolavar since He gives sEvai as Thrivikraman

(ThADALan).

 

In general , one can relate the MangaLAsAasanam to

Moolavar . At SrIrangam , according to IthIhyam ,

Mooavar is KrishNan and Uthsavar is Raaman .

One can identify the Paasurams for KrishNan

and Raaman in Sriranga paasurams as a plesant

exercise. It will be a dhivya anubhavam .

The safest bet for us would be to say that

all the Paasurams of AzhwArs are For SRIMAN NAARAAYANAN .

 

V.Sadagopan

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Adiyaen have a doubt. Pls clarify me even if it is

>very silly.

>

>The Divine "Nalayiru Divya Prabhandha" sung by

>Azhwars is on Moolavar or Uthsavar of the 108

>DivyaDesams?

>

>

>Adiyaen Ramanuja Dasan

>Venkata Nathan

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhagawat Bandhus,

 

Shri Gururaj Rao is right when he says that each

should uphold his own dharma but be tolerant to others

and try to see what is common to all instead of trying

to see the differences. Differences in perception

shall be a matter of interest and should reinforce our

faith in the variety of His Leelas.

 

Next, when we criticise (or shall I say when we are

trying to submit a differenct perception), we can do

it in two ways. We can be very forthright or we can

slightly sweeten the pill. Sometime ago, I came across

a Sanskrit Sloka: "Satyam Brooyat, Priyam Brooyat, Na

Brooyat Satyamapriyam". I hope I am able to convey the

phonetic pronounciation correctly. It means, "Speak

truth, speak sweetly, don't speak truth which is not

dear." And when we follow the later approach, we find

that our views are well received and the others try to

understand us better.

 

I am also a 'guest' in the sense used by Sri Gururaj

Rao. I have been brought up in the Smartha tradition,

and am influenced by Sri Adi Sankara. But when I

recently read the biography of Sri Ramanuja, I

developed a lot of liking for His teachings and His

humility and Love to all. And yesterday, I had the

good fortune of reading a small biography of Sri

Madhwa, so now I am really blessed.

 

The marga of Bhakti is open to one and all,

irrespective of their mental conditioning. At the same

time, knowing more about the great Acharyas of one's

own tradition is very important and this forum is

doing a great job.

 

And by the way, while most of you did visualise me as

a male, Sri Malolan thought of me as a lady. No

offence, but I am a man. I am from Haritasa Gotra,

Andhra, Brahmin, engineer by profession, 53 years now

and working in a Govt. of India Organisation in India.

My full name is Swarna.Venkateswara Swamy. Swarna of

course means gold, but in this case is my surname, and

happens to be the name of a vilalge from which our

ancestors hailed. I have not seen that village!)

 

This forum is indeed useful and I am getting a lot of

benefit.

 

May Sri Hari shower His grace on all. Hari Om.

 

Swamy

(I use this as a short form of my name and not in any

spiritual sense. I know that Swamy means a Master. I

am a Sadhaka with a long way to go.)

 

--- gururaj rao <gurugem wrote:

> Dear Sri Malolan Cadambi, Sri Lakshmi kumar

> and Sri Mohan TL

>

> I have read with lot of interest your

> recent writings in the Bhakthi list.

> I may not agree entirely with your

> views, nor I intend imposing my

> views on you.But I have the following

> candid observations:

> 1) I definitely agree that this is a

> forum wherein you would like to predominantly

> discuss Sri Vaishnavism ( Vishistadvaita).

> We are like guests at your forum, and please bear

> with us, if we have little bit of a divergent

> view. Tolerance is a great Virtue.

> Very important, we are also learning a lot from

> this forum.

> 2) Basically followers of every Acharya

> feels his is the best and is the true interpretation

> of Vedas. We, with our limited faculties, there

> is know way we can say, who is correct

> and who is wrong.

> 3) Born in an extremely orthodox Madhwa

> Brahmin family, I was taught that Madhwa’s

> teachings are the best, and only Madhwas

> can attain Mukthi. When I was a young boy

> I was totally confused and did not agree

> with this concept of ours. I used to think

> how can this be, everybody feels his

> is the best.

> I will give you another example, Protestants feel

> Catholics are no good . And Protestants feel they

> truly represent Christainity. Who represents true

> Christainity nobody knows.

> 4) This is where I agree with Sri Mohan

> wherein he says Anubhavam is more

> important.You please tell me

> which of the three Acharays the

> following Bhakthas followed,

> You have Sri Tulasidas in the north,

> You have Jalaram Bapa in Gujarath,

> You have Sant Tukaram in Maharastra,

> You have Saint Thyagraja in the South.

> You mean to say they were not

> Bhagawath Bhaktas. Not to forget

> Sri Shirdi Saibaba, or Guru Nanak.

> You mean to say whatever they preached

> was wrong and they had no following.

>

> Please donot mistake this message

> of mine.

>

> TO CONCLUDE : I FEEL WE SHOULD FOLLOW

> THE FAITH IN WHICH WE ARE BORN, AND LEARN

> TO RESPECT OTHER FAITHS ALSO.

>

> Not to forget Sri Vishnu’s LilAs are Achinthya

> and Adbhuta. He is capable of lifting anybody

> with his Devine Grace. Nobody can have a Monopoly

> over Lord Vishnu.

> You see Ravana was a great Pundit a great

> Scholar, with all this he did a wrong thing,

> by abducting Mata Sita. I am not going into

> merits of this, he (Ravana) was born under

> curse and is a Vishnu Bhaktha and all that,

> all this every body knows. But what I want

> to say is with all his Panditya, he has the

> wrong Anubhawams, and he did wrong things.

>

> Anubhawams are preordained, we get the

> Right Anubhawams only with the devine

> Grace of Lord Sri Hari.

> With regards

> Sri KrishnArpana Masthu

> NS Gururaj

>

>

>

>

>

> Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

> http://sports.

>

>

>

-----------------------------

> - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

> To Post a message, send it to:

> bhakti-list

> Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

http://sports.

[Guest guest]

RangaRamanuja, was the upanisadic commentator from visistadvaita school. His

is the complete upanisad bhasya from visistadvaita school.

 

he is different from Ramanujacharya.

 

Krishna

 

 

Shruti Dhara [shruti_dhara]

Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:40 AM

bhakti-list

(unknown)

 

 

Dear Bhagavatas,

 

I have a Bengali translation of a Katha Upanishad commentary by Sri

RangaRamanuja. Can anyone identify for me this preceptor?

 

I thank you in advance,

 

Ys,

Jagadish dasa

 

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-----------------------------

- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

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[Guest guest]

Dear Mugundan/all,

 

I have 'lalitha sahasranamam' both in PDF and in MSWord format, typed in

Tamizh.

 

Which one of it you would like to have?

 

Anbudan,

Narayanan

 

PS: file size comes around 473kb (for Msword + fonts, Zipped) and 133kb

(for PDF) - You cannot edit PDF file later!

 

 

Raman Mugunda Krishnan [mugunda]

Sunday, October 06, 2002 6:17 PM

bhakti-list

(unknown)

 

Could any one guide me where i can get a free download

of lalitha sahasranamam and venkatesa namavali.

 

Dasan,

mugundan

[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

Dear SrImathi Lakshmi Harsha:

 

Kaanchipuram is 80 Kilometres south of Chennai

and is easily reachable by car . A knowledgable chaffeur

can take you around in 2 days to visit the 18

or so dhivya dEsams.In oppiliappan List , there has bene recent discussions

on places to stay and the Temples to visit.

 

Viist to temples close to and at Chennai are much easier

done ( parthasArathy PerumAL Temple , MahAbali Puram /

Sthala Sayana PerumAL , Thiruvidaventhai on the way

to MahAbalipuram , Thirumazhisai , ThiruveLLUr,

ThiNNanUr et al.

 

Best wishes,

V.Sadagopan

>Can anyone please give information regarding:-

>

>Number of days required to visit & have Darshan at Divya Deshams (Aalwar

>Paadal kshetrams) in & around Kanchipuram.

>

>A proper guide with vehicle to cover up all the Divya Deshams in Kanchipuram

>and if possible in Chennai also.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Lakshmi Harsha.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>_______________

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>

>-----------------------------

> - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

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**************************************************************

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[Guest guest]

function SetDomain(d) { document.domain = d; }Dear All,

 

To add to the list of Divya Desams in and around Chennai, one should add

Thiruneermalai, on the southern fringe of Chennai and veering off the GST Road

between Pallavaram and Chrompet (Right opp. Ponds' factory) and about 3 kms on

that road.

 

The Lord Neervanna Perumal offers darshan. It is on the top of a small hillock

which has a good flight of steps to reach the top and which offers a panoramic

view of the now - city - now - village look of the surroundings.

 

Parthasarathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

 

 

[Guest guest]

Differnce is like house and home

-

gbhooma <gbhooma

<bhakti-list>

Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:39 PM

(unknown)

 

> Can someone explain the difference between madam and asramam, please.

> Regards

> Bhooma

>

>

>

> -----------------------------

> - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

> To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list

> Group Home: bhakti-list

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>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

>Can someone explain the difference between madam and asramam, please.

>Regards

>Bhooma

 

Dear Srimathi Bhooma:

 

Madam(Matam) is the name for the religious

institutions headed by sanyAsis like Ahobila

Matam Jeeyar , VaanamAmalai Jeeyar , ParakALa

Matam headed by Brahma Tantra Jeeyar. They are

the pontiffs of very old paramparais. SishyAs

belong to these Matams.

 

Aasramam has two meanigns . One is like Gruhastha,

Vaanaprastha , SanyAsa Aaasramam , one of the four

stages in one's life . It also means the abode of

a Sage or Acharyan. In RaamAyaNam , You read about

Lord Ramachandra Visiting Sage BharadhvAja"s aasramam.

Vedic recitals , Yaagams , Yaj~nams , Brahama VichAram

takes place at such Aasramams and Matams.

 

In today's parlance , such high minded activities

take place at Srirangam PeriyAsramam , PoundarIkapuram

ANDavan's Aasramam. These Aasramams have their own

Sishya paramparai and the SanyAsis of these Aasramams

also travel but not always.

 

There are a lot of SvaymAchArya gruhastha and

SanyAsis .Wherever they are can be easily

accepted as Aasramam.

 

V.Sadagopan

>

>

>-----------------------------

> - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

>To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list

>Group Home: bhakti-list

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>

>

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[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

Dear Shri Shreyas,

I just want to let everyone know that I am not trying to interpret

Nammazhwar's pasuram on my own nor am I trying to support anya-devata

worship. I am a person who strictly follows Mamunigal's pasuram you quoted:)

All that I said was that, it really matters to one to realize that HE is one

and his own form is that of Sriman Narayanan according to the Vedas and all

other forms are none but his manifestations(like Siva, Brahma etc) which

cannot be compared to HIM.

 

Let us also not forget the first pasuram of Nammazhwar from his last ten

"Muniye Nanmugane Mukkannappa En Pollakkanivai...."

 

My point was not to support anya-devatha worship! But, to just remind

everyone that the form really doesn't matter as long as we see Sriman

Narayanan in those forms. WELL! Seeing paramatman in one is DEFINITELY

different from saying that it is paramatman. It is the my understanding that

the former abides Vishistadvaitam while the latter is the Advaitin's

perspective:)

 

And I don't see a reason why Sri Visu's quote was irrelevant in that context

I still would stick to the point that the quote was pretty appropriate to

the context. But I never meant that Shri Visu's opinions/interpretations on

that pasuram were appropriate as I wouldn't even want to comment on them.

 

Sarva Aparaadhaan Kshamasva!

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Lakshmi Narasimhan

 

----

 

bhakti-list

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 18:38:45

bhakti-list

(unknown)

 

Sri:

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

 

Dear Sri Visu and Sri Narasimhan,

 

I am reproducing the moderator's comments here. Since

it has been appended to the tail-end of the postings,

others may have missed it.

...............

...............

Finally, let us reflect on the very relevant pAsuram of Sri Manavala

Mamuni's Upadesa Rattinamalai, that Sri Narasimhan had brought up:

 

munnOr mozhin^tha muRai thappAmaR_kEttu *

pinnOrn^thu thAmathanaip pEsAthE * - tham_nenjil

thORRinathE solli ithu_suththa upathEsa_vara

vARRathenbar * moorkkarAvAr.

 

 

 

sarvamsrIkrishArpanmasthu.

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

-Shreyas

 

 

 

-----------------------------

- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

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