Digest Number 157 - Thirumangai Alvar

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna !!!!!

 

I must thank His Grace Mani Varadarajan for very wonderfully explaining the

position of an Acharya's pastimes. I raised this question to get a better

picture of the Alvar's pastimes. I had earlier known of his robbing and

using the golden Buddha's gold to erect the temple at Arangam. But I too did

not come across any murdering incidents.

 

The tendency is that there are some Tamilian elements who for their own

selfish reasons fault the Alvars and Nayanmars for the countless deaths of

Jains and Buddhists in Southern India following the revival of the bhakti

movement. I expected a clear and powerful defense of the Alvar which I could

forward to the poster of the original mail I had sent to this forum and I

have gotten it now. I have already written to that list which featured the

initial mail and explained the situation. Mani Prabhu's mail is very strong

ammunition to combat erroneous opinions.

 

Thank you once again for such a good reply.

 

Hari bol !

 

 

Your servant,

Harijana kinkaran,

R. Jai Simman

Singapore

[Guest guest]

Sri Jai Simman wrote:

> The tendency is that there are some Tamilian elements who for their own

> selfish reasons fault the Alvars and Nayanmars for the countless deaths of

> Jains and Buddhists in Southern India following the revival of the bhakti

> movement.

 

I am hesitant to label these as "selfish reasons", when there are good

reasons to believe that Jains and Buddhists were persecuted. There is

no doubt that there was a great deal of animosity between the Vaishnavas

and Saivas on the one hand and Buddhists and Jains on the other during

this period. This is obvious from the poetry of Jnana Sambandhar among

the Nayanmars and Tondar-adi-podi among the Alvars. Whether these saints

were *directly* responsible for the deaths of "countless" Jains and

Buddhists is doubtful, but it is plausible that many people were persecuted

in the process. What probably happened is that kings took advantage of the

religious transition and executed or severely persecuted the leaders of the

declining religious movements.

 

The Periya Puranam which documents the lives of the Nayanmars attests

to the great animosity against the Jains, even if it may exaggerate the

happenings and the numbers.

 

Note that the traditional biographies of the Alvars do not mention any

persecution of members of rival faiths at the hands of the saints. The

story of Tirumangai Alvar which started this discussion mentioned the

killing of fellow bandits, not Buddhists or Jains.

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Mani

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

These are my replies to Mani Prabhu's recentmost response to my posting in

this regard.

> Message: 8

> Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:40:33 -0700 (PDT)

> Mani Varadarajan <mani

> Re: Digest Number 157 - Thirumangai Alvar

>Mani Prabhu wrote " I am hesitant to label these as "selfish reasons", when

there are good

>reasons to believe that Jains and Buddhists were persecuted. There is

> no doubt that there was a great deal of animosity between the Vaishnavas

>and Saivas on the one hand and Buddhists and Jains on the other during

> this period. This is obvious from the poetry of Jnana Sambandhar among

> the Nayanmars and Tondar-adi-podi among the Alvars. Whether these saints

> were *directly* responsible for the deaths of "countless" Jains and

> Buddhists is doubtful, but it is plausible that many people were

persecuted

> in the process. What probably happened is that kings took advantage of the

> religious transition and executed or severely persecuted the leaders of

the

> declining religious movements.

 

RJS : It is not the compassion felt for the victims of such alleged

persecutions that I labelled as

selfish reasons. On the contrary, I am referring to the presently held

strands of atheistic thought processes

parading within the politics and life of today's Tamil Nadu . These

processes utilising their accompanying

political leverage have sought to present highly tilted and concocted

versions of history and literature in an attempt

to fulfil their own "selfish" agendas totally unrelated to the cultivation

of Bhagavad-bhakti. To this end they take

examples out of their intended context and garb them in an ethnocentric

manner. Thus doing, they debunk all spiritual experiences, indicating that

these are superstituous and injurious to the concept of human rights and

manithaneyam due to their

creation of sectarian cleavages, in which one thrives and another is

crushed - all this in the name of God Almighty.

 

Such a discourse as the one I originally posted to this list could have been

influenced by such tendencies.

 

It is certainly agreed, as you rightly pointed out, that politicians are

expert in utilising anything and everything to gain leverage.

Religion is no exception.

> The Periya Puranam which documents the lives of the Nayanmars attests

> to the great animosity against the Jains, even if it may exaggerate the

> happenings and the numbers.

 

RJS : Regarding these accounts, is there anything substantial on the fate of

the jains defeated by Jnana-sambhandar ?

what happened to them ? what did the king do to the jains who attempted to

persecute Appar ? or for that matter the Buddhists defeated by

Manikkavasagar ? If at all the kings attempted capital punishment, did the

saints speak against these ? any signs of discouragement ?

 

In the case of our Alvars, I have yet to find any such massive persecutions

being mentioned. What of Sripad Ramanujacarya's conversion of the Hoysala

King ? Were the jains persecuted by him upon his conversion to Sri

Vaishnavism ?

> Note that the traditional biographies of the Alvars do not mention any

> persecution of members of rival faiths at the hands of the saints. The

> story of Tirumangai Alvar which started this discussion mentioned the

> killing of fellow bandits, not Buddhists or Jains.

 

RJS : Point noted and agreed upon.

> aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

> Mani

 

 

Vaishnava dasanu dasan,

R. Jai Simman

Singapore