Caste difference in Sr Vaishnavas

[Guest guest]

Respected Swamis:

 

This is in reference to certain postings on October 7.

 

Is there a caste difference among the devotees of Sriman Narayana following

Sri Ramanuja's teachings?

 

What is the difference between Sri Vaishnavas and Bhagavathas?

 

Is there a need still after Sri Ramanuja to integrate all varnas (castes

also) into one ghosti?

 

Sometime ago I persuaded a friend of mine, who does not belong to the

Brahmin community, but a devotee of Sriman Narayana to undergo the

Samashryanam cremony with a famous Mutt head. He was administered the rite

separately after all the Brahmins devotess were finished with. There were

also some more differences, including the Mantra upadesam. My friend asked

for the reasons for the different procedure, which I could not explain. Are

there different procedures in this sacred ceremony between those belonging

to brahmin caste and others?

 

Adiyen

 

D Balasundaram Ramanujadasan

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[Guest guest]

Bala Sundaram writes:

> Respected Swamis:

>

> Is there a need still after Sri Ramanuja to integrate all varnas (castes

> also) into one ghosti?

 

Dear Srimaan Balasundaram,

 

As Sri Rajagopal has correctly noted, there is a pressing need for

us to reevaluate how our tradition is being propagated. One of the

issues is how some of us (male brahmins, including myself) treat

others within the community. As repeatedly emphasized in the

works of the pUrvAchAryas, we must constantly strive to be bereft

of the threefold pride -- pride of birth, pride of wealth, and

pride of knowledge.

 

Many if not most of our pUrvAchAryas had a catholicity of vision

that matched Sri Ramanuja's. Such attitudes are vividly brought

out in some early texts, such as the jnAna-sAram, the 'bhagavad-

viSayam' commentaries on Tiruvaymoli, Sri Vachana Bhushanam,

vArttAmAlai, etc. The problem is that not all of us are now

living up to this integrative vision.

 

Differences in caste are one thing; these are natural as different

elements of society have evolved in different ways over the years. But

whether such differences should be a basis for difference in respect

and treatment meted to devotees is an entirely different matter.

 

What Sri Rajagopal is saying is that people who are not male brahmins

find it extremely intimidating to visit maThams, see acharyas, or

learn more about the sampradAya. Many such people, even if they

have a keen interest, are stymied when they try to find an acharya

willing to teach them intricacies and nuances of the traditional

commentaries. The fact is that there is an inherent bias within

our community.

> Sometime ago I persuaded a friend of mine, who does not belong to the

> Brahmin community, but a devotee of Sriman Narayana to undergo the

> Samashryanam cremony with a famous Mutt head. He was administered the rite

> separately after all the Brahmins devotess were finished with. There were

> also some more differences, including the Mantra upadesam. My friend asked

> for the reasons for the different procedure, which I could not explain. Are

> there different procedures in this sacred ceremony between those belonging

> to brahmin caste and others?

 

There are different procedures depending on whether one has had

Vedic initiation (upanayanam) or not. There is a difference in

how the tirumantra (ashTAkshari) is imparted in the Vadagalai

tradition to those who have not had upanayanam. Basically, the

praNava or 'OmkAra' is given in a different form, as prescribed

by certain texts.

 

I certainly do not have thorough knowledge of this rite, so I

can't say exactly why your friend was administered the rite separately.

>From what I recall from my samASrayaNam experience, all (male brahmin,

other than brahmin, female) were administed the rite at the same time with

the same fire. The practice may vary from acharya to acharya. Some

may feel that the fire should be consecrated in a different way for

those without upanayanam. There is such a separate procedure mentioned

in the 'agastya samhita', a Pancaratra text, where the consecration is

done with smArta and tAntrika mantras instead of Vedic mantras.

 

In my samASrayaNam, the sacred fire was consecrated and purified by

purusha-sUkta and SrI-sUkta homa, and other mantras. The sacred

fire was then used to heat and consecrate the Sankha and cakra which

were them branded upon the shoulders of each of those assembled.

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

Mani

[Guest guest]

Respected Bhagavatas,

 

I also had a similar experience a few years ago in Mysore.

A classmate of mine who is not a brahmin by birth wanted to know

more about our Srivaishnavism and is really a great devotee.

I took him to our Parakala matam.Luckily at that time there

was some function going on.We were really very happy.We both

removed our shirts and tied a dhoti and were standing humbly

watching all the worships.My friend was really happy and made a

really big cash offerring.When everything was over we came to know

that food is being served there.So myself and my friend sat in

the corridor along with so many other people.After a long time

one person supposed to be full time in the matam came along

distributing the 'Yelai' (Leaf) for food.When he came near us he saw

my friend (without a yagnopaveetam) and asked him to go out and wait

for a seperate serving.He told this in such a commanding voice as

though we were all beggars eagerly waiting for food.(Please excuse my

language but I cannot say but truth).My friend silently got up and

went out and I too followed him.He was really great because he was

not at all disturbed by this treatment.But I was boiling with anger.

I took him to my house and we both had prasad there.

Right from my childhood I have seen things like this happening in

Parakala matam.At the time of tadiyaradhanam the so called brahmins

by birth will be fighting among eachother to find a place to sit in

the hall adjacent to madapalli.And outside in the corridor the

fulltimers in the Mutt will be engaged in sending out the

Non-brahmins or they will be making them sit in seperate areas.

Actually Parakala matam has a lot of Non-brahmin followers and during

special occassions one can see so many of them comming over filled

with great bhakti.They usally make large donations but will be

treated like animals by the pseudo brahmanas.

Are We really Brahmanas?

I will write more about Real Brahmanya later.

 

In the service of SriHari

Suresh

 

 

 

 

 

 

bhakti-list , "Bala Sundaram" <dbsundaram@h...>

wrote:

> Respected Swamis:

>

> This is in reference to certain postings on October 7.

>

> Is there a caste difference among the devotees of Sriman Narayana

following

> Sri Ramanuja's teachings?

>

> What is the difference between Sri Vaishnavas and Bhagavathas?

>

> Is there a need still after Sri Ramanuja to integrate all varnas

(castes

> also) into one ghosti?

>

> Sometime ago I persuaded a friend of mine, who does not belong to

the

> Brahmin community, but a devotee of Sriman Narayana to undergo the

> Samashryanam cremony with a famous Mutt head. He was administered

the rite

> separately after all the Brahmins devotess were finished with.

There

were

> also some more differences, including the Mantra upadesam. My

friend asked

> for the reasons for the different procedure, which I could not

explain. Are

> there different procedures in this sacred ceremony between those

belonging

> to brahmin caste and others?

>

> Adiyen

>

> D Balasundaram Ramanujadasan

>

____________________

___

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

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>

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[Guest guest]

Sri:

Sri Gurubhyo Nama:

 

Recently, there were some questions regarding caste

differences among SriVaishnavas and a followup email

about certain incidents at the Mathams in India. I would like

to share my understanding about both the emails (and possibly

correct it, with your help, if wrong) and hope that you receive

my comments in a very objective manner.

 

I believe that while any human being after having

received the anugraham of a sadAchArya becomes a SriVaishnava,

the "varna" of the person stays the same throughout this

janma. Our sacred Vedas and Smritis have allocated various

forms of work to various "varnas" of the society:

 

1) Brahmin - One who's dharma is to gain and later impart knowledge

about the Lord Almighty

2) Kshatriya - One who's dharma is to protect the land and the people.

3) Vaishya/Dwija - Conduct trade and commerce for the progress of the

land.

There may be other varnas with their appropriate dharmas associated with

them.

 

All these varnas are various cogs of the same wheel. My personal opinion is

that neither is a superior to the other but when all of them are supposed to

work together in sync (May be this was the case in Kruta Yuga where Dharma

was in all 4 paadams).

 

All of these individuals (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Dwija) all have different

dharmas, so all of them need different qualities. Therefore our Vedas

have different mantras for these different types of people. I believe

this is the reason for our beloved achAryAs (WHO ARE NEVER WRONG) to give

different upadeshams to different people. I believe that a common

ritual like Sandhyavandanam is to be performed by all of the varnas,

but the mantras differ. However, I stand corrected.

 

While this being my understanding, I am concerned about Sri Suresh's

followup email regarding the treatment of non-brahmins at the Mathams.

I hope that these are the cases where few ignorant employees of the Matham

are responsible for these actions are DO NOT represent the

moral and ethical values that the Monasteries themselves represent. If

such incidents persists, I believe that one should seek the clarification

of our achAryAs regarding the protocols and sAmpradAyams before

making any assumptions and judgements against the Mathams. We are "dAsAs"

of the Lord and our achAryAs and therefore at their mercy. We Must seek

their counsel and act accordingly since our achAryA knows best what is

appropriate. Absolute surrender includes shedding our ego and concern

about how this body is being treated. Sarvam KrishNArpaNamastu

 

 

I reiterate my request to kindly take my comments in an positive manner.

 

Rajeev

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear devotees,

 

I am shocked to see justification of varna by birth which in my

understanding

is baseless and dangerous.

I would like to present my understanding. If it is not in agreemnet with the

teachings of sri vaishnavism, I request the great scholars here to correct

me with quotations from sastras (scriptures + teachings of sri vaishnava

acharyas).

 

In the Bhagavad Gita, the Lord clearly proclaims that one's guna determines

varna. It is not just based on one's birth.It is true that guna is

determined by lineage. But there are instances where people have overcomed

their gunas in the puranas and itihasas to modern times. When a cow killer

gives up his occupation and becomes a 100% vegetarian, eating only prasada,

not taking intoxicants like coffee/tea, clean, not greedy, learned in

sastras, obeying the orders of a sri vaishnava guru, should he be asked to

go and kill cows or should he be allowed to become a brahmin and perform

vedic sacrifices for pleasing the Lord or should be forced to do cow killing

because he was born to such parents and lived such a life for some time ?

If after death, we can get elevated, what is the problem in getting elevated

in this life etc. At death, we give up one body and accpet another.

Similarly in one's own life, we give up bodies and take new ones as we grow.

So we can change our gunas and consequently the varnas in one's own life.

 

Finally, even though we may be born in a brahmin family, by giving it up

most have gone to work like sudras or labourers. This way one loses his

qualification as a brahmin and becomes a dvija bandhu. As people who have

given up our own svadharma, we should not claim to be brahmins and atleast

agree that we lose the right to decide who else is. Scholarship in vedas

alone does not make one a brahmin, even Ravana was a catur vedi. One should

have the qualifications to be a brahmin.

 

One may say that giving up svadharma is condemned by the Lord. Valmiki was

made to give up his lower occupation.

 

A vaishnava should not be distinguished on his external varnashrama

qualifications. What happens to alwars then ?

 

 

I hope I have presented my view without offense to anyone. Thank you for

your comments.

 

Hare Krishna!

Rajaram V.

 

 

 

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