Melkote Ramapriyan

[Guest guest]

Friends,

 

The account of Ramanuja at Thirunarayanapuram/Melkote given in

Guruparampara prabhavam (GPP) states that Ramanuja recovered the

utsavamurthy Ramapriya from a muslim (turushka) king at Delhi.

This is also the "pop" version I have heard.

 

The problem is that there seems to be no muslim king at delhi

before 1190, whereas Ramanuja is supposed to have lived from

1017--1137. Secondly, assuming that Ramapriya was in delhi/north

because he was taken there by some muslim raid of Melkote, we

seem to have another problem: the earliest muslim raids of

Karnataka happen much later (Malik kafur?).

 

How is this resolved? Are there independent accounts from

Melkote?

 

I am not in favour of a searching historical critique of works

like GPP but this appears to be a major anachronism. But perhaps

someone could shed some light?

 

-Kasturi

[Guest guest]

Kasturi Varadarajan writes:

> The problem is that there seems to be no muslim king at delhi

> before 1190, whereas Ramanuja is supposed to have lived from

> 1017--1137. Secondly, assuming that Ramapriya was in delhi/north

> because he was taken there by some muslim raid of Melkote, we

> seem to have another problem: the earliest muslim raids of

> Karnataka happen much later (Malik kafur?).

 

Dear Kasturi,

 

This is indeed an intriguing question. The late scholar

Sri M.R. Sampatkumaran wrote a short paper on this subject,

which was published in the inaugural issue of "Sri Ramanuja

Vani" in 1978 or so. He concluded that it was simply a

historical anachronism, and that the Sri Vaishnavas of

the 14th century must have read their conflict with the Muslims

into their recollection of Sri Ramanuja's life.

 

I'll find the paper and supply the relevant excerpt tomorrow.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Mani,

>He concluded that it was simply a

>historical anachronism,

 

How is the above conclusion supported when Bibi nAchiyAr (the muslim ruler's

daughter) is present right between the thiruvadi of thirunArAyanar?

 

You may wish to refer to 'Melukote Through the Ages' - Published by Academy of

Sanskrit Research,Melukote.

 

Thanks and Best Regards,

 

Daasan,

 

mAlOlan

 

Mani Varadarajan wrote:

> Kasturi Varadarajan writes:

> > The problem is that there seems to be no muslim king at delhi

> > before 1190, whereas Ramanuja is supposed to have lived from

> > 1017--1137. Secondly, assuming that Ramapriya was in delhi/north

> > because he was taken there by some muslim raid of Melkote, we

> > seem to have another problem: the earliest muslim raids of

> > Karnataka happen much later (Malik kafur?).

>

> Dear Kasturi,

>

> This is indeed an intriguing question. The late scholar

> Sri M.R. Sampatkumaran wrote a short paper on this subject,

> which was published in the inaugural issue of "Sri Ramanuja

> Vani" in 1978 or so. He concluded that it was simply a

> historical anachronism, and that the Sri Vaishnavas of

> the 14th century must have read their conflict with the Muslims

> into their recollection of Sri Ramanuja's life.

>

> I'll find the paper and supply the relevant excerpt tomorrow.

>

> Mani

>

> -----------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Dear group

 

The incoident involving the Delhi Sultan is in part true.

 

Delhi was founded in about 700AD. The first attack from Mhd Ghazni

started in early part of 1000AD. he however used the invasion and the

loot collected to replenish his treasury back in Turkey (Central

Asia). He was more interested in controling the Silk Road and the

trade via that region. It was his son Mohammud Ghowri who set up the

occupation in India.

 

Remember, Mathura, Dwaraka, Somnath all were the targets of Ghazni.

There are evidence that some time after 1050AD Ghowri settled in

Delhi, which was letter under the rule of his associate Qtab-uddin (i

need to check the name).

 

Now back to Ramanuja: Sri Ramanuja is said to have arrived in

Karnataka in the year 1099AD. He did not go to Melkote first, In fact

it was at a place called Tondanuur where he established the Nambi

Tambiran Temple. This place was the capital of HoySala king Vithala

Devaraya. Ramanuja cured his daughter who was said to have possessed

and inreturn got the temple build. The king then became his follower

and was called Vishnu Varaqdhan. While his stay at Tondanur, he had a

dream where Namperumal instructed him to go to a mountain where he

would be able to unearth the idol of the Lord. Ramanuja did the same,

whent to the mountain and discovered the idol, which he called Thiru

Narayanan and the place was called Thiru Narayanapuram (aka Melkote).

Ramanuja stayed here with permission from the King for 12 years. A

temple was built at Melkote but did not have an utsavar.

 

The information I have is that Perumal came in his dream and

instructed him to go to Delhi to get the idol of Ramapriya, which was

with the Turkish Sultan (Probably Ghowri or Qtab). Ramanuja did the

same and retrieved the Idol. The idol came to be known as

Sampathkurmara (or) selva pillai.

 

Ramanuja then went onto build three other temples:

 

Kirti Narayan temple at Talakaadu

Vijaya Narayana temple at Belur

Vira Narayana at Gadag.

 

There were the five temple build by Ramanuja with the helpe of King

Vishnu Varadhan

 

As you said, as far as I can gather, there was no invasion of Melkote

during Ramanuja's time. However, this incident (Ramanuja going to

Delhi to get the idol) is most likely true.

 

Also, I have a suspison that the processon idol must have been taken

from one of the four temple that were raided by Ghazni and latter by

Ghowri. In fact, during the invasion of the somnath temple, it is said

that Ghazni took possesion of lots of idols for his Museum. This idol

might have been part of that collection. The retrieval should be taken

in that context and not as a retrieval from Melkote

 

 

For more information please refer to the following (which I have been

reading lately)

 

1. Imapct of Ramanuja on Temple Worship

2. History of Indai - part 1 - Penguin series.

 

 

Adiyen

 

Venkatesh Elayavill

[Guest guest]

Here is the excerpt from Sri M.R. Sampatkumaran's paper,

entitled "History and Ramanuja's Biography". Taken from

"Sri Ramanuja Vani", inaugural issue, 20 May 1977,

published by Sri Ramanuja Vedanta Centre, Triplicane Madras.

>From p. 56:

 

The story of his bringing the idol of Sampatkumara

from the palace of the Muslim king at Delhi to Melkote

cannot at all be reconciled with history. For Delhi

was ruled by Rajputs for more than fifty years after 1137.

[Note: Ramanuja's life is dated as 1017-1137].

>From p. 58:

 

The story of Sampatkumara is a glaring anachronism,

though one can easily guess how it arose. It is related

that Sri Ramanuja set out on a tour in north India in

search of the processional idol of Tirunarayana at Melkote.

He found it in the palace of a Muslim king at Delhi. It was

the beloved possession of the king's daughter. However,

the Muslim king who had with him many idols looted from

Hindu temples, was persuaded by Ramanuja to give him the

one idol he wanted. Ramanuja, overwhelmed by the Lord's

grace, called it his darling child (Sampatkumara). Hence

it came to be known as Yatiraja-sampatkumara or briefly

Sampatkumara.

 

The story assumes that long before the times of Ramanuja,

Muslim invaders had penetrated as far south as Melkote,

carrying away temple idols with them, and that during

Ramanuja's time there was a Muslim ruler at Delhi. Both

those assumptions are obviously wrong. The first Muslim

kingdom at Delhi was set up by Mohammed Ghori after

defeating Prithvi Raj Chauhan iin the last decade of the

twelfth century.

 

[...]

 

It was only Malikkafur, the general of Allauddin Khilji who

made the first Muslim incursion into the deep south and

stormed Dvarasamudra. We cannot also believe that the Muslim

princess followed Sampatkumara all the way to Melkote and

that her figure is found in a dilapidated shrine a little

distance from the Narasimha temple on the hill at Melkote.

The image must be that of some other goddess or lady.

 

The story may have this much of historical truth in it --

that Ramanuja acquired the idol somewhere in the north. The

revolutionary reform of permitting the Panchamas [untouchables]

to enter the temple at Melkote for three days during the

annual Brahmotsava and te honorific name of Tirukkulattar

(persons of blessed families) given to them clearly point

to someone like Ramanuja at work, with overriding authority

in religious and social matters. And the Tirukkulattar owe

their new privileges to having formed Ramanuja's bodyguard

when he recovered the idol of Sampatkumara. Later chroniclers

must have assumed from the conditions in their times that

Moslem rule must have prevailed in the north even much earlier.

 

 

As we can gather from historical data, there was no Musliim incursion

into the Deccan until well after Ramanuja's time. Hence, the utsava mUrti

could not have been taken from South India by a Muslim. Furthermore,

there was no Muslim presence in Delhi until 1192, when Prithvi Raj Chauhan

was defeated by Mohammed Ghori (Venkatesh's earlier message has some of

the dates confused in this regard). Earlier, Mohammed Ghazni merely raided

north-west region in the eleventh century and there is no evidence of any

contact or looting of South India.

 

Regarding Malolan's statement about the presence of bIbi nAcciyAr's tirumEni

at the feet of Tirunarayana Swami, I am unaware of this despite several

visits to Melkote. However, even if some nAcciyAr is present at the Lord's

feet, there is no evidence that it was a *Muslim* princess who came and

sought union with Him.

 

I find Sri Sampatkumaran's arguments convincing.

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Mani