prostrating four times.

[Guest guest]

dear members,

supreme pranams!

i have this strange doubt, silly too.

what is the tatparyam/idea behind prostrating 4 times

in vadakalai sampradayam?

is there any specific reason or is it just done by

convention?

seking your blessings,

radha.

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

Dear members,

 

Pranamas!

 

Prostrating oneself to the other person or may be to

the God is that we are surrendering our SELF to the

other person and also to seek that persons blessings.

 

There are arguments between single and multiple

prostrating of each kalai as to which form is the more

ancient, more traditional form.

 

What I understand(though very crude level of

understanding) is ,

 

That in single prostration, one is behaving as if he

or she is completely at the mercy of the other person,

without any independent will. One should prostrate and

stay down until told by the elders to get up (but we

(most of us) do this in a hurry as if it is a

punishment, just kidding)

 

Prostrating multiple times indicates once willingness

to serve as well as one's willingness to surrender to

the Atma(God ) in the other person again and again.

One should prostrate till told by the elders to stop

or when they say "porum". This might be the reason why

we are supposed to prostrate N number of times before

Acharyans, till they say "porum".

 

I dont see much of the difference in the two ways of

prostrations. Both the forms make sense in its own

way. I dont know why the arguments continues still.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong. It is not intended to

offend learned scholars, but it is my understanding of

the things.

 

Seeking your blessings,

 

Sudarshan R. Thuppul

 

--- Radha Varadarajan <radha_varadarajan

wrote:

> dear members,

> supreme pranams!

> i have this strange doubt, silly too.

> what is the tatparyam/idea behind prostrating 4

> times

> in vadakalai sampradayam?

> is there any specific reason or is it just done by

> convention?

> seking your blessings,

> radha.

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

Dear bhAgavatha,

 

There have been several discussions in Bhakti List over the years

regarding the issue of the number of prostrations and how this

varies between various kalais and muthams. Much of it, as Sri

Sudarshan has suggested, does indeed have to do with how the two

branches of our sampradAyam differ on the issue of surrender.

But, it should be noted that the prostration itself, whether it

is done directly to the Feet of the Lord, or performed out of

respect for His devotees, should not be construed as an act of

surrender or prapatti itself, but only an expression of it.

Prapatti in its true sense can only be realized through the

Lord's Compassion as revealed to us through the kind intercession

and guidance of our AchAryan.

 

Once this concept of prapatti is gifted to the devotee, however,

he/she can begin to see the genuflection in its true light, as

being one way of expressing love and adoration towards God and

more importantly, to His Devotees. It becomes on par with all of

the other ways that our AchAryas teach us as means to serving

God, such as chanting His Holy Names, performing our secular and

religious duties in the mood of loving service, visiting temples,

caring for our fellow living beings, and so on. Consequently,

despite the mechanistic nature of this action, it really serves

an important role in our overall spiritual development.

 

One can easily see the spiritual benefit of putting aside our ego

and self interest, if only for a moment, to humble ourselves

before a fellow Devotee. It is a solemn gesture that allows us

to symbolically experience for just a moment what the AzhwArs

have extolled as one of the greatest of treasures, having the

dust of Sriman Narayana's devotees adorning our forehead. Such

an experience can only naturally lead to a significant change in

one's character, encouraging a person to advance from an

ego-centric life to a God centered one.

 

This spiritual experience has come to be accepted in two

different ways by our tradition. For followers of the Vadagalai

branch, it becomes like the chanting of His Holy Names, something

that becomes sweeter the more it is performed. Consequently, it

is extended to multiple genuflections with the proper recitation

of specific mantras.

 

The Thengalai branch takes a slight variation to this mood of

loving servitude. Although the individual truly desires to

prostrate repeatedly, he empathizes with the pain that it would

cause his fellow devotee, who ideally is seeing himself/herself

as troubling another for an undeserving honor. Consequently, the

individual stops at just one genuflection.

 

Both moods are equal, as they both serve to express the ideal of

loving service and mutual respect that is the essence of the

SriVaishnava faith. What is important is that we perform the

prostration in this proper mood and with the prayer that it will

lead to more such opportunities to serve Sriman Narayana through

service to His Devotees.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Mohan

 

 

-

Radha Varadarajan <radha_varadarajan

<bhakti-list>

Tuesday, February 27, 2001 7:01 PM

prostrating four times.

 

> dear members,

> supreme pranams!

> i have this strange doubt, silly too.

> what is the tatparyam/idea behind prostrating 4 times

> in vadakalai sampradayam?

> is there any specific reason or is it just done by

> convention?

> seking your blessings,

> radha.

>

>

>

> Get email at your own domain with Mail.

> http://personal.mail./

>

> -----------------------------

> - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

> To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list

> Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Member(s),

 

Here is another interesting interpretation I heard in a discourse /

upanyAsam, when I was a kid.

 

The first two goes to PerumAl & PirAtti, the third to the person's direct

AchAryan, and the last to the person concerned.

 

And when we prostrate to the Divine Couple, we're on all fours just for

THEM!

 

Whether it is the real reason or otherwise, I think it is a nice

explanation.

 

Thanks,

Sriram

 

--- Radha Varadarajan <radha_varadarajan

wrote:

> dear members,

> supreme pranams!

> i have this strange doubt, silly too.

> what is the tatparyam/idea behind prostrating 4

> times

> in vadakalai sampradayam?

> is there any specific reason or is it just done by

> convention?

> seking your blessings,

> radha.

[Guest guest]

Dear Members,

 

The responses regarding the number of praNAmams are very interesting. I

would like to write the following points regarding the same.

 

On the count of doing praNAmams, it has to be done only in even numbers like

2, 4 because it is SAstra vidhi. The following pramANams may be noted

down in this context:

 

"PradakshiNAn praNAmAnScha yugmAnEva samAcharEth na vishamAn"

 

manthraiScha vaishNavaissthOthrai: sthuthvA dEvam janArdanam |

praNamEd dviSchathurvA(a)pi anyathA kilbishi bhavEth ||

(prapancha sAram, deekshA prakaraNam)

 

"After worshiping SrIman nArAyaNa: by chanting vaishNava mantras, one has

do praNAmams in count of two or four in even numbers."

 

Therefore, the vidhi for proper number of praNAmams in even numbers like

2, 4 is clear from this.

 

I have seen SrI Vaishnava scholars correcting those who do single praNAmam

with the correct performance of the same in counts of two or four...

 

I also like to mention when praNAmam can be done and when it should not be

done as follows:

 

"apUjyA: yathra pUjyanthE pUjyA: yathrApamAnithA: |

thathra thrINi vivardhanthE durbhiksham maraNam bhayam ||" (dharmasAram)

 

"One has to praNAmam etc before only those who are worthy to be

worshiped. If some one worships those who are not worthy, then three

evils namely scantiness, death and fear will grow there"

 

This means that only SrIman nArAyaNa: and SrI VaishNavas are to be worshipped

by followers of parama Vaidika matham.

 

Even if a person is a qualified brAhmaNa, if he does not know/do

prathyabhivAdanam, then he must not be considered for sEviththAl, abhivAdanam

etc.

 

(prathyabhivAdanam - when a person does abhivAdanam, the other person

who receives the abhivAdanam must do ASeervAdam "AaushmAn bhava" etc

and then tell the name of the person who did abhivAdanam with the

last letter in the name in pluthaswaram - neettal)

 

If a person is knowing the above prathyabhivAdanam but if he is carrying

samith (logs used for vaidika yagnya etc), flower, Tulasi, darbham (a

particular grass considered to be very sacred and used in certain vaidika

karmas), agni (fire), water, soil, cooked rice then he must be avoided at the

moment of he carrying these things. Once he keeps these things in a suitable

place, we can do praNAmams to him.

 

Similarly, we must not do praNAmams to a person at the time of he performing

vaidika karmas like japam, homam etc. After he finishes these things, then he

is fit for us to do praNAmams. Similarly, we must not do praNAmam when a

person is eating or sleeping.

 

"yagnyE rAjagruhE sangrgE praNamEnnAbhivAdayEth"

We can do praNAmams to bhAgavathAs in yAga-sAla, king's court, sabhA etc but

at these places, one must not do abhivAdanam to a person.

 

If a tridandi sanyAsi is younger to another tridandi sanyAsi in terms of

chAturmAsyam, anushtAnams etc., then the younger tridandi sanyAsi can do

praNAmam to elder tridandi sanyAsi.

 

"swadharmasthAn yathIn vrudhdAn dEvAnScha praNAmEdyathi: |

nAnyamASamiNAm kinchith praSasthamapi namEth ||"

(prapanna dharma sAra samuchchaya: yathi vishayE

yathi dharma samuchchaya prOktham viSEsham)

Even if a grahasta is well qualified and doing his swa-dharma perfectly,

tridandi sanyAsi must not do praNAmam to the grahasta. Here it is

observed that SrI Bhagavath rAmAnuja yatirAja swAmi (sanyAsi) did

praNAmams to grahastas who where swAmi's AchAryas. I consider this

as exception because it is the case of doing praNAmams to AchArya.

I would appreciate inputs from scholars in this regard.

 

A grahasta who is well qualified and doing his swa-dharma perfectly, on seeing

a true tridandi sanyAsi, must immediately do three praNAmams chanting the

SrImath AshtAkshara mantra. Otherwise, he becomes impure. Here the SAstra has

specifically mentioned "namaskAra-

-trayam charEth" & "namaskAra-trayam kuryAth". Therefore, this count

is in this special case.

 

One must strictly NOT do praNAmams to a person who thinks SrIman NarAyaNa is

equal to anya-dEvathas. Similarly, one must strictly not do praNAmams to

kudrushtis like prachanna-bowdhas, Veda-bhAyas, anti-vedic (avaidika)

vEsha-bhUsha-dhAri persons and pAshAndis. If these people who are

prohibited are worshiped, then prAyaschiththam has to be done.

 

I would like to mention that the Tenkalai VaishNavas differ from the

count of praNAmams as told in this mail ie., 2, 4... But I suggest

that this difference of opinion in this regard between both the

schools may not be considered as a subject of serious debate. Instead

of considering this difference in count of praNAmams between the two

schools as 'difference', I request you all to consider it this way - doing

praNAmam or praNAmams is common to both the schools. I feel that this is a

good approach for being united in this regard also.

 

Thanks & Regards

M.S.HARI rAmAnuja dAsan (mshari)

 

__________________

Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri M.S.Hari Swamin,

 

I have a small follow-up in this thread.

 

Swami mentions that:

>"yagnyE rAjagruhE sangrgE praNamEnnAbhivAdayEth"

>We can do praNAmams to bhAgavathAs in yAga-sAla, king's court, sabhA

>etc but at these places, one must not do abhivAdanam to a person.

 

What about yAga-sAla which are inside temples? Are they excluded from

the rule? I was told by elders that pranAmams should not be done to

anyone else other than perumAl in temples.

 

But is the yAga-sAla *inside* the temple an exception?

 

Thanks and Warm Regards,

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Daasan,

 

Malolan

 

 

 

 

Get email at your own domain with Mail.

http://personal.mail./