Consciousness in the state of moksha

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriman Mani,

 

Thanks for asking this question- the same thing has been in mind for

a few years now and specially so since about 1.5 years now. I somehow

could not muster enough courage to ask such a question in an open

forum till now. While I wait eagerly to the postings of learned

people in response to this question, I would just like to bring out

some thoughts I have had on this....

 

Although there is no proof etc one can not help thinking that the

Jivan may have knowledge about atleast the last birth in which, due

to its association with a SadAchArya, followed the path of Prapatti

and attained the Moksha state. On the other hand since the one and

only aim of the Jivan in the Moksha state is Kainkaryam to please the

Supreme Being (and then incidentally be pleased looking at the

pleasure of the pleased Supreme Being), why would the Jivan even

"think" about other mundane things such as its previous births?

 

Requesting to be pardoned for expressing thoughts some of which may

not have any basis at all and looking forward to other responses...

 

rAmAnuja dAsi

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE Ramanujaya namah:

 

Dear Sriman Mani,

 

I don't know if I am trying to rush in where angels fear to tread.

I remember asmadhAchAryan mentioning in one of the kaalakshEpams (in

one of the few that adiyEn had attended), that JivAthmA, when He

attains mOksham, can choose to take sarIram (3, 5 sarIrams too can be

taken) or can choose to have no sarIram at all.

 

Also His Holiness added that: jIvAthmA at all times possesses jnAnam.

and the simili is like the small bedroom lamp (kerosene lamp) which

we had used in villages back home those yesteryears (when there was

no elctricity). People used to tone down the light of this kerosene

lamp by reducing its intensity (the thread) to such an extent (so

little that it continues to glow appearing in blue colour and it does

not get extiguished throughout the night. Similarly, the jIvan is

hidden and toned down by karmA (dirt) and the jnAntvam always is

there. Once the dirt is removed, he glows brilliant and is

omniscient. The jIvA by its very nature is omniscient and it becomes

so in the state of mOksham, as is also reflected in saasthrAs..

AchAryan said that this is echoed by Sri Ramanuja in His SriBhAshyam

and also by Swamy desikan in His SrIsookthis.. (perhaps, he did not

elaborate which one as he knew that adiyEn won't understand.)

 

Thus, He exists as a jIvA (individually) who is omniscient and hence

knows all.. (shouldn't it incldue his past?)

 

Erudite scholars may forgive me for adiyen's indulgence.

Regards

Narayana Narayana

adiyEn

 

bhakti-list, Mani Varadarajan <mani@a...> wrote:

>

> Dear Friends,

>

> I have a doubt regarding Sri Ramanuja's opinion on an aspect of

> moksha. The question is as follows. In the state of moksha,

> the jIva is said to regain its true nature as a monadic centre

> of infinite consciousness. All identification with the body

> ceases and the jIva is hereon blessed with the blissful vision of

> the paramAtman which overflows into divine service. However, does

> the jIva retain its memory of all its past births and its countless

> individual identities? Or does the jIva lose all idea of this

> identity and solely know itself as sesha of the paramAtman,

> without reference to any past karmas?

>

> From what I gather, Sri Ramanuja does not explicitly present

> his view on this matter. Can one of our knowledgable members

> inform me as to whether Sri Vedanta Desika has anything to

> say about this, or whether Sri Ramanuja does hint at an

> answer somewhere?

>

> One vedAnta vAkya to consider is praSna upanishad 6.5:

>

> Just as rivers flowing toward the sea, having reached it,

> lose themselves in it, their names and forms are lost and

> there is only mention of the sea ...

>

> Anyone who knows Sri Sankara's position on the matter from the

> vyavahArika standpoint is also requested to provide input.

>

> Thanks,

> Mani

[Guest guest]

Sriman V. Satakopan translation of Swamy Desikan's rahasya grantha -

Parama Padha sOpAnam is available in the Saranagathi journal.

 

Refer 8.12, 8.13 and 8.14 of Divya dEsa PrApthi parvam

http://www.srivaishnava.org/sgati/volume1/v01013.htm

 

"...The jeevan sees the assembly of purvAchAryAs infront of the

simhAsanam of Sri Vaikunta nAthan . They are beaming with joy overthe

Lord's efforts bearing fruit . The jeevan offers its salutations to

them and comes closer to the Lord's throne...."

 

Would this imply that the jIva retains memory of (atleast)

purvAchAryAs?

 

 

adiyEn,

sarvamsrIkrishnArpanmasthu

srIkrishnadAsan

(Shreyas)

[Guest guest]

At 02:34 PM 3/14/01 -0800, you wrote:

 

Dear Sri Sarangan: Thanks for retreiving this

portion of the posting relevant to the discussion .

 

Yes, Sri BhAshyam and Srimath Rahasya Thraya Saaram

support this view of the Muktha Jeevan remembering .

Sri Anand's excellent posting gives some of the appropriate

pramANams.

 

The answer given by them is : " The MukthA has become

devoid of all karma and his knowledge has become

all-pervasive.He sees BhagavAn in every thing and

every where ".

 

All things in the created worlds including his own

previous births are remembered,when needed , as

the glories of Bhagavan. with this realization ,

the Muktha Jeevan enjoys all and is filled with

BrahmAnandam . The Muktha Jeevan enjoys all the powers

of the Lord except the activitiy relating to

the the world ( its Creation and control).

 

When the Muktha Jeevan sees its AchAryan , it remembers

and out of gratitude salutes Him prior to approaching

the Lord seated on AdhisEshan with His Devis.

 

V.SatakOpan

 

>Sriman V. Satakopan translation of Swamy Desikan's rahasya grantha -

>Parama Padha sOpAnam is available in the Saranagathi journal.

>

>Refer 8.12, 8.13 and 8.14 of Divya dEsa PrApthi parvam

>http://www.srivaishnava.org/sgati/volume1/v01013.htm

>

>"...The jeevan sees the assembly of purvAchAryAs infront of the

>simhAsanam of Sri Vaikunta nAthan . They are beaming with joy overthe

>Lord's efforts bearing fruit . The jeevan offers its salutations to

>them and comes closer to the Lord's throne...."

>

>Would this imply that the jIva retains memory of (atleast)

>purvAchAryAs?

>

>adiyEn,

>sarvamsrIkrishnArpanmasthu

>srIkrishnadAsan

>(Shreyas)

[Guest guest]

An equally good treatment on this topic is given in kurai Onrum Illai

Volume 2: pp. 408-410.

 

adiyEn

Rajagopalan Srinivasan

[Guest guest]

Dear Members,

 

Sri Sadananda wrote:

"....How did jiiva-s get into that state of avidya - if avidya is not their

intrinsic nature....."

 

Let me attempt an explanation here, based on my limited understanding.

 

avidya is not the intrinsic nature of jIva, because jIva is the substrate of

knowledge, with knowledge as the key attribute. jIvas are eternal,

self-luminous, spiritual entities that retain their individuality always.

 

The bondage occurs when jIva is associated with a sarIra - the "birth" of a

being, due to past karmA (good and bad or pApa and punyA).

 

Through bhakti yoga, we receive Sriman nArayanA's grace that helps to

overcome the karmic consequences. Hence, upon "death" a blessed jIva attains

mOksham after shedding the physical body (sarIra), thereby beginning a new

"life" of service to the Lord - which is jIva's default or real nature.

 

Due to God's grace, in mOksa, a jIva can summon past associations when

required, yet remain unaffected by the same. Why would a jIva in such a

blissful state need to remember its past? Perhaps, the past will serve to

appreciate the state of mOksa more!

 

As I understand it now, the basic or intrinsic nature of a jIva is that by

way of self-knowledge a jIva recognizes that it is distinct from Brahman or

God even though it closely related to and is part of Brahman/God.

 

It is said that, Sri Ramanuja vaguely refers to two states of jIva: kaivalya

and mOksa. Kaivalya is said to be a transient state of aloofness where the

jIva realizes its position with respect to God. It is in mOksa, a jIva

regains true enlightenment regarding the sesa-sesi relationship with Sriman

Narayana.

 

Would appreciate if fellow bhaktAs can correct me.

 

Regards,

Sriram

[Guest guest]

Sriram wrote:

>avidya is not the intrinsic nature of jIva, because jIva is the substrate of

>knowledge, with knowledge as the key attribute. jIvas are eternal,

>self-luminous, spiritual entities that retain their individuality always.

 

I am trying to understand between the meaning of these words. Please

bear with me. I understand avidya is not jiiva-s intrisic nature -

avidya goes away when knowledge comes - on that basis that which

comes (knowledge) is not his intrinsic nature either - Not sure the

significance of the word key attribute imply - I presume that helps

him to get liberated from bondage. How did jiiva-s end up in avidya

to start with or in bondage - Essentially I am trying to find out

How Bhagavaan Ramanuja explains how jiiva got into this aj~naana

mess. That is my basic question here.

 

About the knowledge - I presume it involves - (a) I am aswatantra

(b) Lord is swatantra and © I am dependent on the Lord - or his

relationship with the Lord. Any thing more involved?

Should I say - aswatatra is his intrinsic nature of the jiiva? - not

the knowledge or avidya per sec since they are not intrinsic to him -

since one goes and the other comes.

 

Eternal aspect I understand in terms of only time wise.- but on

substance basis since what constitute jiiva is not clear yet. -

Self-luminous -Is this an intrinsic nature of mine or is it again

attribute of mine. I am not sure I understand its implication -

luminosity I presume means I am conscious and I am

self-consciousness should mean I know myself all the time or I am

conscious of myself all the time - is consciousness that I am

operating on myself to know my self all the time - is it an attribute

of mine or is it my intrinsic nature. How is this differentiated -

my swaruupa lakshaNa and my attributes - Here is where I have

problem and it goes back to the question I have asked - the

difference between attributes and the locus of the attributes. How do

we know. - I have the same problem with the rest of the words in the

above sentence - spiritual entities and individualities etc - what do

these words mean I do not know yet-

>The bondage occurs when jIva is associated with a sarIra - the "birth" of a

>being, due to past karmA (good and bad or pApa and punyA).

 

I think we have already jumped to the next level of arguments which

raises lot more questions. aj~naana of my aswatrantra nature is the

beginning -(If my understanding is right) How and when did shariira

come into picture to have the karma cycles - there seems to be lot of

assumptions in between. I am not sure the sequence and implications

here. I would like to go step by step to make sure I understand

correctly the doctrine.

>

>Through bhakti yoga, we receive Sriman nArayanA's grace that helps to

>overcome the karmic consequences. Hence, upon "death" a blessed jIva attains

>mOksham after shedding the physical body (sarIra), thereby beginning a new

>"life" of service to the Lord - which is jIva's default or real nature.

 

My foundations are still shaky to follow the rest of the arguments.

I do understand the sequence although I am not sure what does service

really means - why does jiiva has to serve or is it implied in his

aswatantra nature and what does he has to serve or what does service

really means. I need to serve my master since master needs depends on

me - Lord by very definition of the term does not need our service -

and he does not depend on our service nor expect us to serve. Since

He is ananta in all respects. Therefore it should means something

else that I am not clear about in terms of service.

>

>Due to God's grace, in mOksa, a jIva can summon past associations when

>required, yet remain unaffected by the same. Why would a jIva in such a

>blissful state need to remember its past? Perhaps, the past will serve to

>appreciate the state of mOksa more!

>

>As I understand it now, the basic or intrinsic nature of a jIva is that by

>way of self-knowledge a jIva recognizes that it is distinct from Brahman or

>God even though it closely related to and is part of Brahman/God.

 

I thought that is knowledge and not self-knowledge Self-knowledge

being self consciousness - Am I right? I still have problem of

knowing the intrinsic nature of the jiiva what does the individuality

means for jiiva to jiiva or how does one jiiva is different from

other jiiva-s - jiiva-jiiva bhinnatvam - is that bhinnatvam is

intrinsic nature as swaruupa lakshaNa and why so or on what basis.

Not clear about these.

>It is said that, Sri Ramanuja vaguely refers to two states of jIva: kaivalya

>and mOksa. Kaivalya is said to be a transient state of aloofness where the

>jIva realizes its position with respect to God. It is in mOksa, a jIva

>regains true enlightenment regarding the sesa-sesi relationship with Sriman

>Narayana.

 

Dear Sriram - may be I am not tuned yet - unable to get the true

import of these words - jiiva regains true enlightenment of its

position with respect to God in moksha - I understand that

sesha-seshii relation is aswatantra-swatrantra aspect - other than

that I do not understand the enlightenment and relationship of Shree

NaarayaNa means and what it implies.

 

I do not want to flood the list with my ignorance anymore. I will

refrain from posting on this topics and just study the responses and

think on them for some time.

 

I must express that this forum has provided me a means to get to

know lot of people and some members have provided avenues to explore

further.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

>

>Regards,

>Sriram

--

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Respected Sir,

 

You wrote:

 

About the knowledge - I presume it involves - (a) I am aswatantra

(b) Lord is swatantra and © I am dependent on the Lord - or his

relationship with the Lord. Any thing more involved?

Should I say - aswatatra is his intrinsic nature of the jiiva? - not

the knowledge or avidya per sec since they are not intrinsic to him -

since one goes and the other comes.

 

 

The knowledge one gets is as follows:

 

1. Nature of Brahman- Who is He , What/Where/How is He?

2. Nature of Jiva- Who am I? What is the relationship do I have with Him?

3. Path to attain the Brahman-

4. Impediments to attain Him

5. What is the phalan/fruit of attaining him.

 

 

Swami Parasara Bhattar mentions the above 5 in a small poem when he

glorifies Thirvaimozhi.

 

Mikka irai nilai(Nature of Brahman)

Meiyyam Uyir Nilai(Nature of Jiva)

Thakka Neri(The Path)

Thadai(Impediments)

Uzvinai/Vazvinai(The Fruit)

 

Please correct me if anything Wrong.

 

Dasan

 

K.M.Narayanan

 

 

 

 

 

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