Clarification Please...

[Guest guest]

sri:

 

Please forgive me but there are a few very incorrect points that need to

be corrected, if not, repetetions of these incorrect-points without proper

corrections, will be damaging to our sampradaya.

 

:-> 3. When one undergoes upanaynam, he becomes a brahimn; Thereafter he

can learn Vedas and saasthrAs;

 

Undergoing Upanayana just makes one Born again (So they get qualified to

learn Vedas etc.), It does NOT make one a Brahmin.

All the three Varnas get Upanayana (NOT JUST THE BHAHMNA)

(Historical Evidence: Lord Rama (Ikshvaku - Kshatri), Lord Krishna ,

Pandavas were all born in Non-brahmin kulas, but had upanayana.

As per Shastras upanayana DOES not make one a Brahmin.

 

:-> Now- anyone from any varNa, can become a Srivaishnavan; (irresepctive

of caste, creed, colour or sex.

 

This is very correct, e.g: Nammazhwar and most of the Azhwars were

born in Non-Brahmin families. But are the highest of SriVaishnavas.

 

In fact Nammazhwar's Thiruvaimozhi is the Sama Veda Saram

(also chandogya samam)

Thiruvaimozhi contains Tatvathrayam, Rahasyathrayam, Artha Panchakam,

Karma, Gyana, Bhakti, Prapatti, Nayika Bhavam, ThoothuVidukai,

establishes Sriman Narayana Para tatvam, Piratti Purusha kara bhootai,

bhagavatha prabhavam, Means to attain the lord through bhagavathas,

Acharya Abhimanam, the list can keep going on like this.

 

For such a great SriVaishnava do you ask if he is a Brahmin,

No.. He is a SriVaishnava and that is it,

Once you accept one as a SriVaihsnava no more questions asked.

 

:-> But one has to follow their respective varNAsrama dharmA

 

Once you accept one as SriVaishnava there is no need to

worry about what varna he/she belongs to

(Now being a SriVaishanva is not very easy, that can be a seperate thread)

adiyen understands from Srimad RahasyatryaSaram, VenkataNathar says

VarnaAshrama has to be followed till er are on this BhuLokam.

(Please see Pillai Lokacharyan incident below)

 

:-> not upanayanam because that is not called for in his birth and in >his

varNA per saasthrAs).

 

Again all three varnas are required to get Upanayana and perform

Sandhya. (e.g: Vali, Vibheshana, etc. in history have performed

Sandhya without fail (This qualifies them to perform their duty)

 

:-> BUT.. we should not say this and marry his daughter.. this is where

 

I think this is where some touchy feelings might get touched, but there

are enough examples (including Perumal himself breaking this rule)(We

might say ohhh! he is Perumal he can break the rules.)

 

Here is a story to illustrate this:

Swami Vadakku Thiruvedhi Pillai's wife requested from his Acharyan

Swami Nampillai for letting Vadakku Thiruvedhi Pillai off for some time so

they can bear a child with Acharya's blessings for the propogation of the

Vaishnavism (Vaishnava Kula Dhanam to be passed down to the next

generation)

So Swami Pillai Lokacharyan was born as the first child with Acharyan's

blessings. Namperumal wanted to bless Vadakku Thiruvedhi Pillai with a son

as well, hence was born Azhgiya Manaval Perumal Nayanar (Azhgiya Manavalan

is Lord Ranganatha).

One of his main works, Acharya Hridayam (Here Nammazhwar is the Acharyan):

This is a Sutra Grantham (Sutra Granthas have few words

with very deep and complete meanings)

Pillai Lokacharyan in Sri Vachana booshanam says "

Do not ever ask which caste Nammazhwar was born in,

Do not ask if Thiruppanazhwar is from Panar Kulam,

Beacause Lord says, if there is anyone who is my Devotee,

treat him like you treat me (the Lord) because this devotee is

Poojya. (Satha Poojyaha yahta Gyaham)

Even if he is from the lowest of low class, if he is my devotee

you should see me in him.

 

Pillai Lokacharyan says"

Once the Lord himself says treat my devotee like you treat me,

where comes the question of asking any bhagawatha for his Caste"

 

Some Vedic Scholars those days took great objection to this, and

took this up with Lord Ranganatha.

(PS: Lord Krishna says in Bhagawad Gita:

Some Vedic Scholars will hold on to somethings I say, not realising the

meaning (Veda Vadarathaha Pratha Nanyadhithiti Vadinaha)

They will just do Vadam (Arguements) not understanding why I said this in

Vedas. Lord Krishna tells Arjuna do not get tricked by these

so called Vedic scholars, please try to understand why i have given the

Vedas.)

 

So these Vedic Scholars took this upto Lord Ranganatha with the point that

his teachings are against the Vedic teachings. So he needs to be banished

from this Town. (Their point was, if he speaks against the Vedas he is no

Brahmin, so remove him from this town)

 

So Lord asked for Pillia Lokacharyan Swami (He has to be impartial)

so the Archaka was told to bring Swami Pillai Lokacharyan.

At this time Pillai Lokacharyan was not there at home, and his younger

brother (Born as a blessing from the Lord himself)

came to the Lord as a representative of his brother (If the lord calls for

you someone has to come, so the brother came on his behalf)

 

Porappadu (Procession) was about to start for the Lord when Nayanar

got back to the temple, Lord said I do not have much time

here is the question ..... what do you have to say in defense.

Question: Without looking at the Caste differnces should the devotee be

treated as the Uyarndhavan (The Highest) in all aspects for all purposes.

 

Ans: I will come along with you during the procession and keep explaing

the position per Sri Vachana booshanam if the Lord so pleases

 

Lord agrees to this, and while going around in 4 Vidhis (during porappadu)

he explains the 4 prakaranam in Acharya Hridhayam (He explains Nammazhwar

Viabhavam & Thiruvaimozhi Vaibhavam to the Lord) by doing so he defends

the position of his brother in Sri Vachana Booshanam.

 

So he says if we ever look for a caste or class once the person is

identified as a bhaktan, devotee, srivaishnavan this will be very against

your ThiruVullam. (Nayanar asks: Will you ask us to look for caste of a

devotee, how would you want us to deal with this after hearing all this,

would you accept if we treat a devotee any different because of his

caste.)

 

This is when Lord Ranganatha says, yes Pillai Lokacharyan's Stance

is right " A devotee is a devotee, treat him like you would treat me,

the question of caste does not arise"

Sri Nayanar's position is right, there is no need to look at the person's

birth caste once he is my devotee he is my Bhaktan, not to be bound by

caste)

 

I could go on about Acharya Hridhayam and Sri Vachana Booshanam

but I guess the point is made about Caste & Class not to be applied

for SriVaishnavas. (Because the LORD himself said so, and would be hurt if

we treat his devotee any different)

 

================================================

Munnor Mozhindha Murai Thappamal Kettu

Pinnorndhu TamMadanai Pesadhe

Than Nenjil Thoninadhe solli, Idhu Suddha Upadasa

VaraVarathaenbhar, Moorkharavar.

================================================

When we say something, it should be backed with the work of some periyavas

(now who are periyavas.... Another thread eh!...)

 

azhwa:r emberuma:na:r jeeya:r thiruvadigale: saranam

 

adiye:n ra:ma:nuja: da:san

Mukundan Vankipuram Pattangi

www.radioramanuja.com

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE Ramanujaya namah:

Dear Sri Mukundan,

 

I have always been admiring of your posts whenever you send..

Thanks very much for the informative posts again..Thanks for sharing such

beautiful anecdotes from Acharyas' lives. They have been exalted souls..

It is the Lord's grace that we are born in such lineages (or brought into

such lineages).. Thanks a million again.

 

Sorry that I mentioned only brahmin for pooNool.. (others also do have).

Nowadays even some brahmin boys also don't:" :-)

 

With regard to equating Srivaishnavas equal to the Lord Himself; and

highest regards, I fully agree with you.

There is no second opinion.

 

All that I wished (or intended to) write is:

 

One has to follow his varNAshrama dharma..

(Gievn below is an extract from Sri Anand Karalapakkam's article on the

same subject- *sort of*)

 

In Bhagavad GItA , Sri KrishnA says " woman , vaishyas & sUdrAs -those who

are of sinful birth , whoever they might be, they obtain the highest state

(moksham) , if they seek My protection " (Chapter 9- sloka number, I don't

recall)

 

Though the caste may be considered low ,everyone is eligible for moksham

through saraNAgathy.. There is no restriction in it. Anyone can become a

Sri Vaishnava through samAsrayanam. These things are intimately tied up

with the jIvAthmA . So, there are no restrictions. But, restrictions come

into play only in the case of karmAs to be performed since the type of body

acquired is taken into account .

 

Once one becomes a devotee of Sriman NArAyanA , irrespective of his/her

caste , one should eulogize them . Any vaishnavA is always glorious .

 

Though the caste may be considered low ,everyone is eligible for moksham

through prapatti . There is no restriction in it. Anyone can become a Sri

VaishnavA through samAsrayanam. These things are intimately tied up with

the jIvAtmA . So , there are no restrictions. But, restrictions come into

play only in the case of karmAs to be performed since the type of body

acquired is taken into account .

 

Though a devotee might be from a particular caste which is in general

considered low , he is neverthless far supreme than the other persons of

his caste.

 

There are lots & lots of pramAnams to show that a Sri vaishnava should be

adored irrespective of his caste. Just because of the caste, one might be

debarred from reciting vedAs. This doesn't mean that he can't be a supreme

devotee. As you rightly said, AzhvArs like NammAzhvAr and ThirupPANAzhwAr

have no parallels.

 

Of all forms of ArAdhanam (say homage,adoration etc) , ArAdhanam to Lord

VishNu is the best, but superior even to this is the excellent ArAdhanam

(homage ,adoration etc) offered to Vishnu's devotees. "

 

There are also pramAnAs of the following type which stress the importance

of paying respects/adoration to devotees irrespective of their caste :

 

MahAbhArathA :"Those sUdrAs who have devotion to BhagavAn are not sUdrAs ;

they, who are devotees of BhagavAn are Brahmins. Those who have no bhakti

to BhagavAn (JanArdanA) , whatever might be his caste - they alone are

sUdrAs "

 

So, by the presence or absence in them of the specific attribute of bhakti

(devotion; not to be confused with bhakti yogA) to Sriman NArAyanA, men of

lower castes are called by the names of the higher, & men of higher castes

are called by the names of lower respectively.

 

Then one might possibly come up with the question " Does the devotees of

Sriman NArAyanA belong to one and the same caste ? "

 

If it is so , then it contradicts with all the pramAnams of the type

 

"Thus will the devotee of Lord who is a Brahmin conduct himself and thus

will the devotee who is a sUdrA conduct himself etc ".

 

Consider the following pramAnA :

 

MahAbhArathA : AswamedhikA parvA (116.8) :" Auspicious qualities which

carry esteem do not arise from caste. The demigods (devAs) consider as a

Brahmin even a chandAlA who conducts himself in accordance with his caste "

 

It is also evident from many pramAnams quoted above that the caste of a

devotee doesn't change because of his devotion , though he has to be highly

respected & adored for his devotion (the terms used in the pramAnAs

inherently assumes that a devotee belongs to a particular varNA). For that

matter , even though a sthrI (lady) is a great devotee of Sriman NArAyanA &

is a BrAhmin , SAstrAs(*) don't allow her to recite vedAs, perform

Agnihotrams etc.

 

(*) Smrutis declare that sthrIs shouldn't recite vEdam etc esp. in kali

yugA, as per kali yuga dharmA.

 

There are pramAnams which state that the prapannAs from various castes are

equal ,which is in the sense of attainment of the final goal, namely

moksham. So,there is a kulam called Sri VaishNava kulam wherein everyone

are so great that all are certain to reach Sri VaikuNTham since they adopt

prapatti . But this word kulam is not be confused with caste ie.varNA.

 

PeriAzhvAr in his Thirup pallAndu says "pandaik kulaththai thavirthu

pallAndu ..." (We will give up our former kulam & sing pallAndu to perumAL

).

 

So, instead of being a materialist, now one becomes a Sri VaishNavA fixed

in kainkaryams .

 

Let us see Sri Peria AchAn PiLLai's conclusion on Thirumangai AzhwAr's

pAsurm 1.1.9 " kulam tharum ..." ( "The name "NArAyanA" , confers a

(higher) kulam ) :

 

"If a man who is low by birth & by conduct attains contact with BhagavAn,

one who has both should shrink from calling him low , because of the

potency of his devotion to BhagavAn "

 

Our poorvAchAryAs say that one must have high reverence for a Srivaishnavan

, whatever may be his caste & is one of the greatest offenses to treat him

with indifference , disregard , ill will or contempt on the ground of his

caste. This doesn't mean that a srivaishnavan, whomsoever he might be, is

eligible to perform agnihOtrA.

 

A materialistic analogy : A person may be a nobel laureate in Physics and

the whole world is glorifying him for his achievements. This doesn't mean

that he can be asked to teach English. Similarly, all prapannAs are highly

glorifiable since they have surrendered to the Divya dampati by begging the

divya dampati themselves to become the upAyam (means) to attain the

kainkarya sAmrAjyam at Sri VaikuNTham. This doesn't make a prapannA

eligible to perform sandhyAvandanam and recite vedAs irrespective of

his/her varNA. These activities are related with the varNA and SAstrAs

specify appropriately as to what one can do / shouldn't do.

 

Ardent devotion to Sriman NArAyaNA doesn't advocate the change of varNA ,

since by very definition varNA is based on body.

 

Sri Peria vAcchAn PiLLai very categorically states this in his commentry to

the verse in Garuda PurAnam :

 

verse :

"Bhakti or devotion is of eight kinds. If bhakti is found in a mleccha, he

should be considered a devout and knowing Brahmin. To him, giving is proper

& taking is proper. He should be treated with the same reverence as I

myself "

 

in His commentary : " This doesn't mean that strIs (ladies) can be given in

marriage to him and the like , but he may be given the gift of knowledge

and the like.

 

Thanks to Sri Anand Karalapakkam for giving me permission to make use of

his write up.

 

Thanks again for your explanation and clarification.

You are doing wonderful kaimkaryams in your posts and radioramanuja.com. .

Regards

Narayana Narayana

aDiyEn Narayana dAsan madhavakkannan