nityatvam of jIva-s & paratvam of SrIman-nArAyaNa

[Guest guest]

SrImate gOpAla-deSika-mahA-dESikAya nama:

 

Dear SrI-vaishNava-s

 

It is said that the jIva-s always existed from beginningless time.

 

How do we understand this correctly, in conjunction with the paratvam

of SrIman-nArAyaNa ?

 

Please be informed that this is a question asked in earnestness.

 

Thank you,

 

aDiyEn Ramkumar rAmAnuja dAsan

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE gOpAla-deSika-mahA-dESikAya nama:

 

Dear SrI-vaishNava-s

 

It is said that the jIva-s always existed from beginningless time.

How do we understand this correctly, in conjunction with the paratvam

of SrIman-nArAyaNa?

 

Please be informed that this is a question asked in earnestness.

 

Thank you,

 

aDiyEn Ramkumar rAmAnuja dAsan

================

SrI:

SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:

 

Dear Sri Ramkumar,

 

Our VisishtAdvaita Srivaishnava Sri philosophy talks about three tattvams

(or reals):

1. Chit- soul- self- AthmA or Chethanan (JivAthmA) This is sentient and has

jnAnam (knwoledge)

2. Achit- or matter- it is non sentient and has no knowledge.

3. Iswara (Supreme Lord)

 

The jIvathmAs (infinite in number) donot have beginning or end; it is

eternal; it is atomic in size. No death for jIvAthmA; it is only for the

body; The jIvan passes from one body to other depending on karmA or attains

mOksha (when performs bhakti yogam or prapatti).

JIvAtmAs are also further classified into:

a. baddha- who are subjected to repeated births and deaths and are bound in

samsaara.

b. muktha- who are released from the bondage of samsaara and have attained

mOksha (by performing bhakti yogam or prapatti)

c. nithya- who are eternally liberate like Adhiseshan, Garuda, Vishvaksenar

and others.

 

Iswara -the Supreme Lord is Sriman Narayanan.

He is the Master; Supporter; Controller of everything (other than Him)

He is present everywhere and knows everything. Out of compassion for us,

Sriman Narayanan takes avtaars as Rama, Krishna, out of freewill and desire.

The avtaars are not bound by karmas and are not like our births. The purpose

of avtaars is to protect good and punish the wicked and to uphold dharma.

Out of His compassion for us, He takes archA avtaars and shows Himself in

Divya mangaLa vigraham at His chosen places (divya dEsams- ugandhu aruLina

nilangaL)

 

The most important priniciple of VisishTadvaita philosophy is the sarIra

sarIri (Body/Soul) relationship between chethana, achethana and Iswara. The

Lord (Iswara) is the soul; and other two tattvas chethana and achethana form

His Body.

 

It is to be noted that the "sarIrI" needn't be physically present inside a

"sarIrA". This is not a condition to be met out for the sarIra-sarIrI bhAvA

to hold good..

 

Thus Sriman NArAyaNA supports and controls all jIvAtmAs, and all the

jIvAtmAs exist purely for His enjoyment. Thus, the very essential nature

(svaroopam) of a jIvAtmA is to perform kainkaryam to Sriman NArAyaNA for His

pleasure and performance of any other activity doesn't conform to its

nature.

 

To recapitulate:

 

Yes. JivAthmAs are existent from time memorial; just like the Lord. (so is

the achEthana). Everything (in leela vibhUthi)has been either inside His

stomach (during mahApraLayam) or outside ; (Nithya vibhUthi stays nithyam

-permament). (even devas are temporary. remember- uNdu, umizhndha eccil

dEvar. Thus, jIvAs are eternal (just like the Lord). jiVas are born (out of

Him) and go back to Him (to His stomach). They lie dormant in His stomach;

Out of compassion, Lord grants opportunity to jIvAs for being born again so

that at least then, if we think of Him, and surrender to His Lotus Feet.

(But.. we immerse ourselves in sensual pleasures and materialistic desires))

 

He ALONE is the Master (PARATHVAM); because everyone else is His servants;

Master and servants-ever present al all times.

otthAr mikkAr illAdha maamAyan avan.

 

unnOdu uRavEl namakku ingu ozhikka ozhiyaadhu; (AND)

uRROmE aavOm; umakkE naam AtcheyvOm..

conveys all...

 

This sarIra sarIri is also echoed by Thirumazhisai AzhwAr with a simili:

Like the ocean which has waves spreading out from its own(though waves look

and are different from the ocean), and takes the whole lot of waves back to

its own waters; (and then the cycle repeats.) You (the Lord) let the moving

(chith) and non moving (achit) be born and dead and then take them

converging back to you (during mahApraLayam) (please forgive me for my free

translation).

 

thannuLE thiraiththezhum tharanka veNthadankadal

thannuLEthiraiththezhun^thadankukinRa thanmaipOl

ninnuLEpi RanthiRanthu niRpavum thiripavum,

ninnuLEya dankukinRa nIrmain^in_kaN ninRathE.

(Thirucchandha viruttham- 10)

 

Sri Paraasara Bhattar compares the same to Peacock and its feathers that

expand when dancing and again goes back (after the performance). What great

examples! (even dull headed ones like me can perceive!)

 

Hope I have not confounded your confusion.

Any questions, do not ask me (I know nothing). Please ask the erudite

scholars of the list:-) It is my bhagyam to write this on EkAdasi dhinam.

Thanks for giving us an opportunity to talk about this.

Regards

Namo Narayana

aDiyEn dAsAnu dAsan

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

bhakti-list, "tg_ram" <tg_ram> wrote:

> It is said that the jIva-s always existed from beginningless time.

>

> How do we understand this correctly, in conjunction with the

paratvam

> of SrIman-nArAyaNa ?

>

 

Dear Ramkumar,

 

I presume your question is the following. If the jIvas

are said to exist eternally, does this not affect the

infinitude and absolute paramountcy (paratva) of the

paramAtman SrIman-nArAyaNa?

 

The answer is that the eternality of the jIvas is

itself dependent on the nitya-icchA (eternal will)

of the paramAtman. The idea is that the jIvas' very

existence is rooted in the eternal will of the Lord.

Theoretically, the Lord, if He so chooses, can decide

that the jIvas should no longer exist. But His will is

such that they do.

 

There is a sloka by Kurattalvan that expresses this

idea (unfortunately I cannot recall it right now).

 

The Svetasvatara Upanishad declares in no uncertain terms

'na tat samaSca-abhyadhikaS ca dRSyate' -- there is nothing

equal or greater than It. This is echoed by our Alvar

in 'ottAr mikkArai ilaiyAya mAmAya!'. The implication

is that not only is there nothing that can compare with

the Parabrahman in terms of total infinitude and other

kalyANa-guNas, but even if some entity shares some quality

with It, that entity depends on its glory on the Parabrahman,

whereas the Parabrahman depends on absolutely nothing else.

 

The liberated jIva enjoys the same bliss as the Parabrahman

(mam sAdharmyam AgataH, says Lord Krishna in the Gita). As

you have indicated, all jIvas share the quality of eternality

with the Lord. For that matter, even the stuff of the universe

(acit or prakRti) is eternal. However, all these derive their

guNas from the paramAtman, whereas He derives them from nothing

else.

 

The very definition of the word 'Brahman' conveys this

idea. Brahman, while also signifying the jIva and acit,

principally signifies the Supreme Reality because of a

unique twofold meaning. Sri Ramanuja cites an ancient

authority that assigns the name Brahman to the Supreme

because, not only is it Great, it *imparts* Greatness to

everything else (bRhatvAt bRhmaNatvAt brahmA iti).

 

This is the idea one should keep in mind when one says,

"SrI lakshmI-nRsimha *parabrahmaNe* namaH", "SrI lakshmI-

hayavadana parabrahmaNe namaH", etc.

 

rAmAnuja dAsa,

Mani

[Guest guest]

SrImate gOpAla-deSika-mahA-deSikAya nama:

 

Thanks to Sri Madhavakkannan & Sri Mani for their clarification.

 

Now I understand that jIvas' very-existence (svarUpa) & the eternal

duration of their existence (sthiti) are as such, due to the very

Supreme Will of para-brahman.

 

Also, I have heard that activities (pravRtti) of jIva-s (inlcuding

those of the baddha-jIva-s) are under the "control" of brahman.

 

Now, could someone please enunciate the meaning of,

"activities [pravRtti] of the **baddha**-jIva is bhagavad-adhInam" ?

 

Thanks

 

aDiyEn Ramkumar rAmAnuja-dAsan

[Guest guest]

Dear bhAgawatas,

 

SrimAns Madhavakannan and Mani have already eloquently elaborated on

this. I would just like to share some of my thoughts.

 

This paradox probably is most difficult to resolve in dwaita, and

probably most easily resolved in advaita. Since we don't want to get

into polemics (I am not even trained in that anyway), let's see the

vishishtadwaitic explanation. The solution here also is pretty

convincing.

 

According to Vishistadwaita, Brahman is the only entity without a

second (adviteeya), and the other things (tattvas) that we see around

us like the prakrti, kAla, jIva are His eternal adornments (nithya

sareeram) because of His divine will (sathya sankalpa). So, Brahma-

swaroopam and Brahma-shareeram are both eternal, the latter being

utterly dependent on the former. So, the existence (and consequently

the eternality) of the jIva is dependent on the will the Brahman.

 

So, to summarize, when we say that the jIva is eternal, it assumes in

the first place that this is because of Brahman's divine will. So,

instead of posing a problem to Brahman's paratvam, it glorifies it.

 

adiyen, murali kadambi

 

bhakti-list, "tg_ram" <tg_ram> wrote:

> SrImate gOpAla-deSika-mahA-dESikAya nama:

>

> Dear SrI-vaishNava-s

>

> It is said that the jIva-s always existed from beginningless time.

>

> How do we understand this correctly, in conjunction with the

paratvam

> of SrIman-nArAyaNa ?

>

> Please be informed that this is a question asked in earnestness.

>

> Thank you,

>

> aDiyEn Ramkumar rAmAnuja dAsan