Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Respected Sir, kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu, etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum, valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar, adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE. If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he belongs to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted the explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org. Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. Then why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great devotees of lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and shri vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should be made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee of shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the main reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am extremely sorry for that. with regards charchita Send FREE video emails in Mail! http://promo./videomail/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 SrI: SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah: Dear Charchitha Rangacharya, You have asked a very valid and great question. This prevails in everyone's minds at some time or the other. I had the samee doubt few years ago. And the post in this list clarified the same. I am reproducing that for evryone's understanding and reference. This is written by Sri Anand Karalapakkam on the same subject.. VarnAsramam- and Varnasrama dharmam- Let us see what the sAstrAs says. The prevailing condition of the society is another issue . SAstrAs are not limited by time anyway. Its upto one to follow whatever they can . Adiyen's motive is to just share the injunctions in the sAstrAs. Please don't take it otherwise. Is VarnA ie. jAtI based on the body ? The answer is "yes" . VarnAs are just based on the type of body one obtains , which is determined by one's karmA. Many Smruthis & MahAbhArathA categorically mention this. The following pramAnAs would amply explain about the varnA. All the karmAs enjoined in sAstrAs are strictly varnA based. So, one just takes up such kainkaryams according to the varnA & does it with full dedication & devotion to Sriman NArAyanA. In the Brahma SootrA (2.3.46) , the sootrakArA affirms that all the jIvAtmAs are parts (amsA (**)) of Brahman ie. jIvAtmAs are sarIrA to Brahman since they are being supported & controlled by Brahman , & they exist only for the pleasure of Brahman . In other words , sarIra sarIrI bhAvA between the jIvAtmA & the Brahman "Sriman NArAyanA " is established & thus jIvAtmAs are only an attribute to Brahman (in that sense they are also part of Brahman) . But , this gives rise to a very valid doubt . The sootrakArA ( VyAsar) answers it in the next sootrA . (**) amsA : amsA => part . Note that all the parts put together doesn't make the whole ie. all the jIvAtmAs & achit which are part of Brahman doesn't become the Brahman , by their totallity . Brahma svaroopam is all together different . Neverthless , Brahman is always vishistA ie. one cannot separate the relationship between the Brahman & its attributes (chit , achit) .Since the chit & achit are eternally the "sarIrA" (body) of Brahman , they are its parts (amsAs) . Let us see what Bhagavad RAmAnujA says in Sri BhAshyam : In the BhAshyam to sootrA 2.3.46 , Bhagavad RAmAnujA puts forth the question by himself : < start quote > ----- " But , if all individual souls are equal in so far as being alike parts ie.amsAs (bodies / attributes) of Brahman , alike actuated by Brahman & alike knowing subjects , what is the reason that , as Scripture teaches ,** some of them are allowed to read vedAs & act according to its injunctions , while others are excluded therefrom ** & again some are to see , feel & so on , while others are excluded from these previleges ? This question is answered in the next sootrA . sootrA 2.3.47 : Anuj~nApariharau dehasambhandhAjjyotirAdivat ( Permission & Exclusion result from connection with the body , as in the case of fire etc ) Although all souls are essentially of the same nature in so far as they are parts of Brahman , knowing subjects & so on , the permissions & exclusions referred to are possible since ** each individual soul is joined to some particular body , pure or impure , whether a BrAhmanA or KshatriyA or VaishyA or SUdrA & so on **. As in the case of fire & so on ' : All fire is of the same kind , & yet one willingly fetches fire from the house of a BrAhmanA , while one shuns fire from a place where dead bodies are burnt. And from a BrAhmanA one accepts food without any objection , while one refuses food from a low person " ------- <end quote> The essence is that with respect to jIvAtma svaroopam , all are alike. So, no one is either a BrAhmanA or kshatriyA or GruhastA or sanyAsi etc . One is simply a jIvAtmA , a servant of Sriman NArAyanA . But , as long as the jIvAtmA is in this material world , it is inseparably united with a particular type of body . So , the dharmAs for that varnA has to be followed . sAstrAs are the commands of Sriman NArAyanA to the jIvAtmAs in the material world & not for muktAs / nitya soorIs, since it is only the baddha jIvAtmAs that are associated with material bodies . So, being in this material world & doing so many actions like eating, sleeping etc based on body , one should not adopt a double standard & refrain from the karmA prescribed in the sAstrAs for each varnA , under the pretext that one is only a jIvAtmA & not the body . It is the same sAstrA that tells one to be a jIvAtmA apart from body & also instructs one to perform karmA based on varnA. So, a series of questions arises : "If one gets a lowly birth , does it mean that he is unfit for performing kainkaryams unto Sriman NArAyanA ? Can such a person not attain moksham by the end of that life itself ? Should a bhAgavathA from low births be eulogized or not ?" Because of the birth , one would have to take up the allotted kainkaryams prescribed in the sAstrAs. This doesn't mean that one is debarred from performing any sort of kainkaryams unto Sriman NArAyanA. In Bhagavad GItA , Sri KrishnA says " Woman , VaishyAs & SUdrAs -those who are of sinful birth , whoever they might be - they obtain , O pArthA! the highest state (moksham) , if they seek My protection " (9.32) VishnuDharmA (10.2.29) states : "Though DharmavyAdhA & others belonged to low & gruesome castes , yet since , in their previous births , they had performed Bhakti YogA , they continued in their latest life & having completed therein , attained their goal like Sramani (Sabari) " Note : The person starting the bhakti yogA should be of the first three varnAs. In future births , the jIvAtmA may land up taking any type of body according to the left over sins. Though the caste may be considered low ,everyone is eligible for moksham through prapatti . There is no restriction in it. Anyone can become a Sri VaishnavA through samAsrayanam. These things are intimately tied up with the jIvAtmA . So , there are no restrictions. But , restrictions come into play only in the case of karmAs to be performed since the type of body acquired is taken into account . Once one becomes a devotee of Sriman NArAyanA , irrespective of his/her caste , one should eulogize them . Any vaishnavA is always glorious . IthihAsa SamucchayA (27.26) says " Whether a devotee of BhagavAn Sriman NArAyanA be a soodrA , a huntsman or a man who eats dog's flesh ; the man who looks upon him as identical with other men of those respective castes will go to hell" . Though a devotee might be from a particular caste which is in general considered low , he is neverthless far supreme than the other persons of his caste. SwAmi Desikan quotes lots & lots of pramAnams (proof) to show that a VaishnavA should be adored irrespective of his caste. Just because of the caste , one might be debarred from reciting vedAs. This doesn't mean that he can't be a supreme devotee ( eg: AzhvArs like NammAzhvAr has no parallel as a devotee ) . A famous quote from Padmottaram (29.81) : " Of all forms of ArAdhanam (say homage,adoration etc) , ArAdhanam to Lord Vishnu is the best , but superior even to this is the excellent ArAdhanam (homage ,adoration etc) offered to Vishnu's devotees. " There are also pramAnAs of the following type which stress the importance of paying respects/adoration to devotees irrespective of their caste : MahAbhArathA : AswamedhikA parvA (118.32) : "Those sUdrAs who have devotion to BhagavAn are not sUdrAs ; they who are devotees of BhagavAn are Brahmins. Those who have no bhakti to BhagavAn (JanArdanA) , whatever might be his caste - they alone are sUdrAs " So , by the presence or absence in them of the specific attribute of bhakti (devotion; not to be confused with bhakti yogA) to Sriman NArAyanA, men of lower castes are called by the names of the higher , & men of higher castes are called by the names of lower respectively . Then one might possibly come up with the question " Does the devotees of Sriman NArAyanA belong to one and the same caste ? " If it is so , then it contradicts with all the pramAnams of the type " Thus will the devotee of Lord who is a Brahmin conduct himself and thus will the devotee who is a sUdrA conduct himself etc ". Consider the following pramAnA : MahAbhArathA : AswamedhikA parvA (116.8) :" Auspicious qualities which carry esteem do not arise from caste . The demigods (devAs) consider as a Brahmin even a chandAlA who conducts himself in accordance with his caste " It is also evident from many pramAnams quoted above that the caste of a devotee doesn't change because of his devotion , though he has to be highly respected & adored for his devotion ( the terms used in the pramAnAs inherently assumes that a devotee belongs to a particular varnA). For that matter , even though a strI (lady) is a great devotee of Sriman NArAyanA & is a BrAhmini , sastrAs doesn't allow her to recite vedAs, perform Agnihotrams etc. On top of these , yuga dharmA also imposes restrictions . There are pramAnams which state that the prapannAs from various castes are equal ,which is in the sense of attainment of the final goal , namely moksham . So , there is a kulam called Sri Vaishnava kulam wherein everyone are so great that all are certain to reach Sri Vaikuntam since they adopt prapatti . But this word kulam is not be confused with caste (ie. jAti/varnA ). PeriAzhvAr in his Thirup pallAndu says "pandaik kulaththai thavirthu pallAndu ..." (We will give up our former kulam & sing pallAndu to perumAL ). So , instead of being a materialist , now one becomes a Sri VaishnavA fixed in kainkaryams . Let us see Sri Peria AchAn PiLLai's conclusion on Thirumangai AzhwAr's pAsurm 1.1.9 " kulam tharum ..." ( "The name "NArAyanA" , confers a (higher) kulam .." ) : "If a man who is low by birth & by conduct attains contact with BhagavAn , one who has both should shrink from calling him low , because of the potency of his devotion to BhagavAn " Sri PiLLai LokAchAryA says that one must have high reverence for a prapannA , whatever may be his caste & is one of the greatest offenses to treat him with indifference , disregard , ill will or contempt on the ground of his caste . But these doesn't advocate the change of varnA according to devotion , since by very definition varnA is based on body. Sri Peria AcchAn PiLLai very categorically states this in his commentary to the verse 219.6.5 in Garuda PurAnam : verse : "Bhakti or devotion is of eight kinds. If bhakti is found in a mleccha, he should be considered a devout and knowing Brahmin. To him , giving is proper & taking is proper .He should be treated with the same reverence as I myself " Sri PVP's commentary : " This doesn't mean that strIs (ladies) can be given in marriage to him and the like , but he may be given the gift of knowledge and the like " So AchArya reminds us that inter-dining ,inter-marriage (say between a BrAhmana strI & a sUdra man , even though both of them are devotees ) etc are prohibited in sAstrAs (smruthIs are the main references for these). For instance in MahAbhArathA: Aswamedhika ParvA 118.14 , BhagavAn says "Therefore , a sUdrA shouldn't utter My names with pranavA " . Only a devotee is going to recite the names of BhagavAn Sriman NArAyanA . But He Himself instructs such devotees , not to utter pranavA. SAstrAs always explicitly mention the dharmAs of a varnA . Consider the following verse from VarAha PurAnam ( 139.53) : "The man born of the caste of those who eat dog's flesh woke up as soon as the day dawned , finished his observance which consisted in singing the praise of Bhagavan and returned after uttering the mantra 'Namo NArAyanA ' " According to the specific varnA, the mantrA needs to be recited with/without pranavam etc. sAstrAs explicitly enjoins the recitation of the mantrA like "Namo NArAyanA + dative suffix " prefixed by pranavA , when the Upadesam is for say a BrAhmanA . The point is that one must have high reverence for a devotee irrespective of his caste , but the code of conduct between the devotees of various varnAs (which in one sense a restriction / limit) is specified by sAstrAs. For instance , if the sAstrAs eulogizes the devotees of Sriman NArAyanA as follows ( Vihagendra SamhitA) : "The man who is always thinking of Sriman NArAyanA - whatever be the calling (vritti) he follows for his living , that is adoration ; whatever he says (jalpah) is japam; whatever he sees is meditation or dhyAnA ; the water that has received contact with his feet is incomparably holy water ; whatever is left after he has eaten will purify ; his mere words are a sacred mantrA; whatever he touches becomes pure " . What a grand eulogy of the devotees of Sriman NArAyanA ! All are true; but the eulogy is restricted by the sAstrAs again ie. it shouldn't violate sAstrAs. "his mere words are a sacred mantrA " : If a devotee speaks on materialistic affairs , it doesn't become a mantrA . "whatever he touches becomes pure " : Can a devotee touch liquor & say it has become pure & drink? For instance , in VarAhapurAnam , Lord VarAhA says " The VaishnavA who touches blood even without knowing what it is - I never condone his offence , O goddess of earth , even after thousand apologies " . So , the eulogy is restricted again by pramAnAs. It holds good as long as it doesn't violate sAstrAs . So the pramAnAs which eulogize the devotees from all castes are valid as long as it doesn't violate other pramAnAs. Now , the question arises as to how to deal with those born in a BrAhmanA family & doesn't perform karmA according to that varnA . Enough PramAnAs are present (some already quoted) which verily chastises such persons. If a BrAhmanA is not a devotee of Sriman NArAyanA , he has to be considered a chandAlA only ie. no more can he be respected as a BrAhmanA . A very popular quote from DakshaSmruthi : "The man (whomsoever are ordered to perform ) who doesn't perform the rites pertaining to sandhyA is ** always impure ** & is * unfit * for the performance of any other rite. Whatever other rite or karmA he may perform , he will not obtain the fruit thereof " . Such men who doesn't perform SandhyAvandanam eventhough born in a BrAhmanA family can't enter perumAL sannidhi , can't enter temples , can't prostrate to elders , perumAL & the like , can't dine with other BrAhmanAs etc , since they are always impure ( nithya theetu ie. permanant Asoucham) . A dhoora strI (ladies in menstrual cycle) is prohibited to do certain activities because of the theetu . Similarly , the men who according to their varnA should perform SandhyAvandanam , somehow doesn't perform it, gets theetu & is thus forbidden from performing many activities . Thus , by "BrAhmanAs" sAstrAs mean those born in BrAhmanA family & live upto the standards of BrAhmanA & likewise. Now let us see the Ultimate Analysis by which all the previous discussions would become very clear : Sathvam Of the Body & the Sathvam of the Mind : SwAmi Desikan explains the difference between the sathvam of the body & the sathvam of the mind. MahAbhArathA :Aswamedhika ParvA (40.11) states " Tamas (ignorance, sloth etc) is found in great measure in the sUdrA , rajas in the kshatriyA and sathvam in the BrAhmin " . The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the special qualities of the body ,arise even at the time of birth & remains until death. Thus , the varnA is fixed by birth , due to the type of body. These qualities of body which can't be observed by naked eye , somehow make the body either pure or impure for the performance of certain karmAs. But, a sUdrA eventhough has the predominance of Tamas in the composition of his body , can very well obtain the quality of sathvam in his mind. It is because of the preponderance of sathvam in the minds of sUdrAs & the like , the sAstrAs eulogize them & instructs everyone to respect them highly for their devotion to Sriman NArAyanA. For great devotees like PrahlAdA , the preponderance of sathvam in the mind was present from the very birth. Anyone can obtain the preponderance of sathvam in one's mind by the mercy of a SadAchAryA . It must be noted that if a man born in other castes acquires the higher virtues , he will be extolled highly as stated in the Vishnu PurAnA slokA 6.2.6 : " Men are to be honoured in the following order of preference - for the possession of vidyA (J~nAnA) , of right karmA , of age, of relatives & of wealth . Even a sUdrA possesing these is fit to be honoured in old age " .. It is ** very very important ** to note that the excellence arising from the body & from qualities of the mind were to cause pride or arrogance , it would lead to evil consequences . One should for certain develop Akinchanyam ( feeling of lowliness / lack of virtues) in the lines of AzhvArs & AchAryAs who have set the right example : Tirucchanda Viruttam (90) : " I was not born in any of the four castes where dharmA could be practised " (your referred pAsuram, Charchitha) Stotra Ratnam (61) : "I was born in a family renowned in the world wherein everyone was pure & performed yogA (upAsanA) , where everyone knew the truth about prakruti with its three qualities and the jIvAs , where everyone had their mind firmly fixed at Your (Sriman NArAyanA) Lotus Feet & yet I inclined to commit sin & am now sunk in samsArA, O Saviour ". KArpanya (utter humility , lowliness etc) is very essential for a PrapannA , since it forms as one of the angAs of Prapatti . Thus , though there are regulations regarding castes and the code of conduct pertaining to each caste, there is nothing to prevent a person from being honoured "in the mind" . Exceptional cases / Doubts : a. What about AzhvArs from lowly castes ? : AzhvArs as true devotees of Sriman NArAyanA lived according to the varnAshrama dharmA. They never violated it. No one can even be compared for the exaltedness of their supreme devotion unto Sriman NArAyanA . Anyway AzhvArs are certainly exceptional cases . The point is that , they are Nitya SoorIs having taken the incarnation out of their mercy to preach to the suffering jIvAtmAs. b. VidurA : VidurA himself says "As I was born a sUdrA , I can't teach any further " (MahabhArathA:Udyoga ParvA 41.5 ) , since initiation into vidyAs (upAsanAs) , mantrAs and the like should be only from a BrAhmanA. But Sri KrishnA ate at his house because he was certainly a premier devotee. Anyway ApasthambA in his dharma sootrA (2.2.4) states that SUdrAs who are under the supervision of AryAs are competent to cook for AryAs . In yugAs other than kali , sUdrAs having great qualities were permitted to cook the food for AryAs under their own supervision. MahAbhArathA: UdyogaparvA 91.43 says " The pure VidurA having the qualities necessary for it , brought the food ". c. VisvAmitrA : He became a BrAhmanA after being a kshatriyA because of the special causes , as the charu ( oblation of grain cooked in milk and other things) eaten by his mother without knowing that it was intended for producing a Brahmin child . There are some more episodes which may seem to be contradictory , but actually they aren't . Performance of Rites according to VarnA & AshramA : Lord KrishnA in His GIta Upadesam says "One shouldn't give up karmA ordained for the varnAs & the AshramAs .Their omission arising from ignorance is renunciation due to tamas " & "He who gives up karmA because it is painful & fatiguing to the body - he renounces owing to rajas and does not obtain the fruit of renunciation " (Bhagavad GItA 18.7,8 ). Rather , one should perform the prescribed karmAs with sAthvIka tyAgam ( kartrutva tyAgam ie. without the doership attitude + mamatA tyAgam ie. without the attitude of "mine" + phala tyAgam ie. without any want of fruits / solely for the pleasure of Sriman NArAyanA) . To perform the karmA ordained for a man with the thought that it is an end in itself and that it ought to be done without the desire for gain of any kind - this is O ArjunA , tyAgam (renunciation) due to sathhvam " (Bhagavad GItA 18.9 ). Glories of VarnAshrama DharmA : Some of the pramAnams that glorify VarnAshrama dharmA are as follows . Vishnu PurAnA (3.8.9) : "BhagavAn who is the Supreme Person is adored by the man who performs the duties and rite of his varna and his AshramA ..There is nothing which delights BhagavAn other than this " Vishnu PurAnA (3.7.20) : "The man who doesn't deviate in the least from the karmAs ordained for his caste , who considers alike those who wish him well and those who wish him ill and who never deprives another of what belongs to him and never does any action of violence (himsA) - know that this man who has a mind free from faults like desire , is a devotee of Vishnu " No one has right to violate sAstrAs : SAstrAs are the only guiding light for the baddha jIvAtmAs . If someone does contradictory to what sAstrAs says , it will not be pleasing to the divya dampati . For instance, if a BrAhmanA forfeits the performance of SandhyAvandanam (*) it is certainly an act that won't please the Divya Dampati . Note : SandhyAvandanam is a mahA yogA combining karma , jn~Ana & bhakti yogA , filled with their aids such as japA , dhyAnA , prAnAyAmA etc . But, a prapannA does not perform this as an angA of Bhakti yogA , but rather to just please Sriman NArAyanA . SandhyAvandanam is anyway filled with Holy Names of Sriman NArAyanA & is a very great way of worshipping Him. Even a casual understanding of the meanings of the mantrAs & slokAs recited during SandhyAvandanam would make one deeply devoted to Sriman NArAyanA & would love to perform SandhyAvandanam regularly . What to speak about those who understands the deep imports of GAyatri mantrA, AshtAksharam etc ? Following is the quote from Lakshmi Tantram (17.93-97) , wherein PIrAtti is saying the following : "In order that there may be no violation of dharmA , for the protection of family , for keeping ignorant men in right path by setting them an example , for the preservation of the moral law as defined in the sAstrAs , for My satisfaction & for the satisfaction of the Lord armed with sArngA who is god of all gods , the prapannA who is wise shouldn't even think of transgressing the ordinances of vedA. Even a king's favourite , who because it serves no purpose of his own destroys the bund of a river dug by the king's order , which is of great use to the world, is beautiful in itself & causes abundance of crops , - even he will be impaled for having done so. So also , though he may be dear, the man who violates the ordinances of the vedAs is no favourite of mine - in as much he violates My commands " Another famous quote from VishnuDharmA (6.31) , wherein Sriman NArAyanA says : "Sruti & Smruti are indeed My commands . He who transgresses them violates My commands . He is My dhrohi. Though he may be devoted to Me , he shouldn't be called a VaishnavA " Let us meditate on the following verse as the conclusion : Jitante stotram : "I may be born to anyone in whatever family (wherever I may be born) , may I have the eager longing to enjoy the pleasure of rendering service to You (Sriman NArAyanA) ! I will never do anything on behalf of any other deity with my body , mind, speech or head" Note : All the pramAnams are taken from Srimad Rahasya Traya SAram (SRTS) of SwAmi Desikan. Almost all the explainations too are from that granthA only . SwAmi Desikan anyway deals with this topic very elaborately. The posting is just on what the sAstrAs say about VarnA & its dharmA. The prevailing situations make many a persons unable to follow their dharmA properly . Its upto one to realize one's inability to follow the sAstrAs & develop Akinchanyam , & mentally acquire the angAs of prapatti & proceed in that direction to finally perform prapatti & lead a life of a prapannA with at least minimal anushtAnams . One must at least repent mentally over one's transgressions of the sAstrAs, as taught by our AzhvArs & AchAryAs . Namo NArAyanA Adiyen Anantha PadmanAbha dAsan ============== Regards adiyEn ----Original Message Follows---- charchita rangacharya <charchitar bhakti-list regarding casteism Wed, 16 Jan 2002 04:46:24 -0800 (PST) Respected Sir, kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu, etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum, valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar, adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE. If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he belongs to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted the explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org. Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. Then why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great devotees of lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and shri vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should be made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee of shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the main reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am extremely sorry for that. with regards charchita _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Dear bhAgavatAs, With all due respects, I would like to add a few words in spite of my extremely limited experience / knowledge. First, the use of adjectives "high" and "low" to qualitatively distinguish one's caste or varnA is a human proclivity than bhagavAn's will. Regardless of the varnA, there is no "high" and "low" per se when it comes to one's occupation. The concept of "high" and "low" is just our skewed perception. Fallible as we are, we (conveniently) characterize a priest "high" and a janitor "low" - by vocation and therefore their nature. What is to be understood is that, though one is advised to take-up a duty based on one's caste/disposition, there is absolutely no doubt as to if at all it is possible to change that "disposition by birth" through conduct. Whichever way one approaches this - vEdAs or modern behavioral science - the results are clearly in the affirmative. A person regardless of birth can turn out to be a great soul. And therefore it goes without saying that in spite of one's birth, if he or she deviates from the path of dharma there will be consequences. "In Bhagavad GItA , Sri KrishnA says " Woman , VaishyAs & SUdrAs -those who are of sinful birth , whoever they might be - they obtain , O pArthA! the highest state (moksham) , if they seek My protection " (9.32)" The above verse according to achArya srI rAmAnuja's gIta bhAsyA is translated as follows by Swami AdidevAnanda: "By taking refuge in Me even men of evil birth, women, VaisyAs and also sUdrAs attain the supreme state" Sri Krishna excludes brahmanAs and kshatriyAs deliberately to explicitly emphasize that the rest of them will also attain mOksham upon surrendering to Him. His emphasis leaves no room for doubt whatsoever. Therefore, it is indeed a sin to discriminate or disrespect a being based on caste. Sri Vaishnava sampradAyam's history and our purAnAs illustrate this very convincingly. -adiyEn, Sriram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 please refer to the rig-veda 10.90.1-16 (purusha). more specifically (i quote from ralph griffith's translation) verses 11-14 - ---> 11 When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make? What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet? 12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made. His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced. 13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth; Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vayu from his breath. 14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds. <--- ("rajanya" is the original name given to the race of kshatriyas.) thus, according to the most ancient hindu text, it is evident that there is absolutely *no* mention of the superiority or inferiority of the various varnas and so there can be no possibility of discrimination. if one says that being created from the feet of the lord reeks of inferiority, then i'm afraid it is the divinity of the lord that is being questioned. if there is casteism, it is due to human foibles. i hope the discussion ends here. regards, prabhu. bhakti-list, "Sriram Ranganathan" <srirangan@e...> wrote: > Dear bhAgavatAs, > > With all due respects, I would like to add a few words in spite of my > extremely limited experience / knowledge. > > First, the use of adjectives "high" and "low" to qualitatively distinguish > one's caste or varnA is a human proclivity than bhagavAn's will. Regardless > of the varnA, there is no "high" and "low" per se when it comes to one's > occupation. The concept of "high" and "low" is just our skewed perception. > Fallible as we are, we (conveniently) characterize a priest "high" and a > janitor "low" - by vocation and therefore their nature. What is to be > understood is that, though one is advised to take-up a duty based on one's > caste/disposition, there is absolutely no doubt as to if at all it is > possible to change that "disposition by birth" through conduct. Whichever > way one approaches this - vEdAs or modern behavioral science - the results > are clearly in the affirmative. A person regardless of birth can turn out to > be a great soul. And therefore it goes without saying that in spite of one's > birth, if he or she deviates from the path of dharma there will be > consequences. > > "In Bhagavad GItA , Sri KrishnA says " Woman , VaishyAs & SUdrAs - those > who are of sinful birth , whoever they might be - they obtain , O pArthA! > the highest state (moksham) , if they seek My protection " (9.32)" > > The above verse according to achArya srI rAmAnuja's gIta bhAsyA is > translated as follows by Swami AdidevAnanda: > "By taking refuge in Me even men of evil birth, women, VaisyAs and also > sUdrAs attain the supreme state" > > Sri Krishna excludes brahmanAs and kshatriyAs deliberately to explicitly > emphasize that the rest of them will also attain mOksham upon surrendering > to Him. His emphasis leaves no room for doubt whatsoever. > > Therefore, it is indeed a sin to discriminate or disrespect a being based on > caste. Sri Vaishnava sampradAyam's history and our purAnAs illustrate this > very convincingly. > > -adiyEn, > Sriram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2002 Report Share Posted January 20, 2002 srImathE rAmAnjuAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Prabhu Srinivas, A wonderful example to prove that there is no hierarchy in caste by birth. As you have said very correctly it is only the human ego which has created it. Another interesting point to note that will be, if we are to talk of hierarchy, I would say that SudrAs take the top most place as they are born out of the feet of Sriman nArAyaNa, under whose feet, the entire world take refuge. For a true Sri Vaishnavite, the lotus feet of Sriman nArAyaNa is the most important part. That is why it is said that we should worship emberumAn, starting from this thiruvadi to thirumudi, as shown by the great ThiruppANAzhwAr. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh ---------------- "g_prabhu_srinivas" <g_prabhu_srinivas bhakti-list please refer to the rig-veda 10.90.1-16 (purusha). more specifically (i quote from ralph griffith's translation) verses 11-14 - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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