regarding casteism Is there historic support ?

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All the Alwars (12) and Nayanmars (63), who wrote the devotional literature of

Tamil were non-Brahmins, but their works are the most revered in Tamil temples,

be it Shaivite or Vaishnavite. The same goes for Thirumoolar who wrote

Thirumanthiram, a great treatise on yoga. He

was also from the shepherd community. Kamban who wrote Ramayana, was

also a non-Brahmin. But these were recognized by brahmin and were glorified b

brahmins also.

 

 

Al Beruni in his Indica states that the oppressive regimes of the Muslim

invaders and their persecution of Brahmins and the closure of religious schools

is forcing the Brahmins to confine teaching of scriptures only to their kith and

kin. He wonders if it may lead to regimentation of the society based on birth.

That gives us an idea that the the present caste system might have taken roots

due to invaders. And was not there before in the same form.

 

I am not denying the concept of jati and varna exist in vedic literatures. But

was it purely based on birth ? Sri Krishna says that varna is determined by guna

and karma - guna karma vibhagasah. I would reuest clarification from scholars.

 

 

 

Madhavakkannan V <srivaishnavan wrote: SrI:

SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:

Dear Charchitha Rangacharya,

 

You have asked a very valid and great question. This prevails in everyone's

minds at some time or the other. I had the samee doubt few years ago. And

the post in this list clarified the same.

I am reproducing that for evryone's understanding and reference. This is

written by Sri Anand Karalapakkam on the same subject..

 

VarnAsramam- and Varnasrama dharmam- Let us see what the sAstrAs says. The

prevailing condition of the society is another issue . SAstrAs are not

limited by time anyway. Its upto one to follow whatever they can .

Adiyen's motive is to just share the injunctions in the sAstrAs. Please

don't take it otherwise.

 

Is VarnA ie. jAtI based on the body ? The answer is "yes" . VarnAs are

just based on the type of body one obtains , which is determined by one's

karmA. Many Smruthis & MahAbhArathA categorically mention this. The

following pramAnAs would amply explain about the varnA.

 

All the karmAs enjoined in sAstrAs are strictly varnA based. So, one

just takes up such kainkaryams according to the varnA & does it with full

dedication & devotion to Sriman NArAyanA.

 

In the Brahma SootrA (2.3.46) , the sootrakArA affirms that all the

jIvAtmAs are parts (amsA (**)) of Brahman ie. jIvAtmAs are sarIrA to

Brahman since they are being supported & controlled by Brahman , & they

exist only for the pleasure of Brahman . In other words , sarIra sarIrI

bhAvA between the jIvAtmA & the Brahman "Sriman NArAyanA " is established &

thus jIvAtmAs are only an attribute to Brahman (in that sense they are also

 

part of Brahman) . But , this gives rise to a very valid doubt . The

sootrakArA ( VyAsar) answers it in the next sootrA .

 

(**) amsA : amsA => part . Note that all the parts put together doesn't

make the whole ie. all the jIvAtmAs & achit which are part of Brahman

doesn't become the Brahman , by their totallity . Brahma svaroopam is all

together different . Neverthless , Brahman is always vishistA ie. one cannot

 

separate the relationship between the Brahman & its attributes (chit ,

achit) .Since the chit & achit are eternally the "sarIrA" (body) of Brahman

, they are its parts (amsAs) .

 

 

Let us see what Bhagavad RAmAnujA says in Sri BhAshyam :

 

In the BhAshyam to sootrA 2.3.46 , Bhagavad RAmAnujA puts forth the

question by himself : < start quote >

-----

" But , if all individual souls are equal in so far as being alike parts

ie.amsAs (bodies / attributes) of Brahman , alike actuated by Brahman &

alike knowing subjects , what is the reason that , as Scripture teaches ,**

some of them are allowed to read vedAs & act according to its injunctions ,

while others are excluded therefrom ** & again some are to see , feel & so

on , while others are excluded from these previleges ?

This question is answered in the next sootrA .

 

sootrA 2.3.47 : Anuj~nApariharau dehasambhandhAjjyotirAdivat

 

( Permission & Exclusion result from connection with the body , as in

the case of fire etc )

 

Although all souls are essentially of the same nature in so far as they

are parts of Brahman , knowing subjects & so on , the permissions &

exclusions referred to are possible since ** each individual soul is

joined to some particular body , pure or impure , whether a BrAhmanA or

KshatriyA or VaishyA or SUdrA & so on **.

 

As in the case of fire & so on ' : All fire is of the same kind , &

yet one willingly fetches fire from the house of a BrAhmanA , while one

shuns fire from a place where dead bodies are burnt. And from a BrAhmanA

one accepts food without any objection , while one refuses food from a low

person "

 

-------

 

The essence is that with respect to jIvAtma svaroopam , all are

alike. So, no one is either a BrAhmanA or kshatriyA or GruhastA or

sanyAsi etc . One is simply a jIvAtmA , a servant of Sriman NArAyanA . But ,

 

as long as the jIvAtmA is in this material world , it is inseparably united

with a particular type of body . So , the dharmAs for that varnA has to be

followed . sAstrAs are the commands of Sriman NArAyanA to the jIvAtmAs in

the material world & not for muktAs / nitya soorIs, since it is only the

baddha jIvAtmAs that are associated with material bodies . So, being in this

 

material world & doing so many actions like eating, sleeping etc based on

body , one should not adopt a double standard & refrain from the karmA

prescribed in the sAstrAs for each varnA , under the pretext that one is

only a jIvAtmA & not the body . It is the same sAstrA that tells one to be a

 

jIvAtmA apart from body & also instructs one to perform karmA based on

varnA.

 

So, a series of questions arises : "If one gets a lowly birth ,

does it mean that he is unfit for performing kainkaryams unto Sriman

NArAyanA ? Can such a person not attain moksham by the end of that life

itself ? Should a bhAgavathA from low births be eulogized or not ?"

 

Because of the birth , one would have to take up the allotted

kainkaryams prescribed in the sAstrAs. This doesn't mean that one is

debarred from performing any sort of kainkaryams unto Sriman NArAyanA.

 

In Bhagavad GItA , Sri KrishnA says " Woman , VaishyAs & SUdrAs -those

who are of sinful birth , whoever they might be - they obtain , O pArthA!

the highest state (moksham) , if they seek My protection " (9.32)

 

VishnuDharmA (10.2.29) states : "Though DharmavyAdhA & others belonged

to low & gruesome castes , yet since , in their previous births , they had

performed Bhakti YogA , they continued in their latest life & having

completed therein , attained their goal like Sramani (Sabari) "

 

Note : The person starting the bhakti yogA should be of the first three

varnAs. In future births , the jIvAtmA may land up taking any type of body

according to the left over sins.

 

Though the caste may be considered low ,everyone is eligible for

moksham through prapatti . There is no restriction in it. Anyone can

become a Sri VaishnavA through samAsrayanam. These things are intimately

tied up with the jIvAtmA . So , there are no restrictions. But ,

restrictions come into play only in the case of karmAs to be performed

since the type of body acquired is taken into account .

 

Once one becomes a devotee of Sriman NArAyanA , irrespective of

his/her caste , one should eulogize them . Any vaishnavA is always

glorious .

 

IthihAsa SamucchayA (27.26) says " Whether a devotee of BhagavAn Sriman

NArAyanA be a soodrA , a huntsman or a man who eats dog's flesh ; the man

who looks upon him as identical with other men of those respective castes

will go to hell" .

 

Though a devotee might be from a particular caste which is in general

considered low , he is neverthless far supreme than the other persons of

his caste.

 

SwAmi Desikan quotes lots & lots of pramAnams (proof) to show that a

VaishnavA should be adored irrespective of his caste. Just because of the

caste , one might be debarred from reciting vedAs. This doesn't mean that he

 

can't be a supreme devotee ( eg: AzhvArs like NammAzhvAr has no parallel as

a devotee ) .

 

A famous quote from Padmottaram (29.81) : " Of all forms of ArAdhanam

(say homage,adoration etc) , ArAdhanam to Lord Vishnu is the best , but

superior even to this is the excellent ArAdhanam (homage ,adoration etc)

offered to Vishnu's devotees. "

 

There are also pramAnAs of the following type which stress the

importance of paying respects/adoration to devotees irrespective of their

caste :

 

MahAbhArathA : AswamedhikA parvA (118.32) : "Those sUdrAs who have

devotion to BhagavAn are not sUdrAs ; they who are devotees of BhagavAn

are Brahmins. Those who have no bhakti to BhagavAn (JanArdanA) , whatever

might be his caste - they alone are sUdrAs "

 

So , by the presence or absence in them of the specific attribute of

bhakti (devotion; not to be confused with bhakti yogA) to Sriman NArAyanA,

men of lower castes are called by the names of the higher , & men of higher

castes are called by the names of lower respectively .

 

Then one might possibly come up with the question " Does the

devotees of Sriman NArAyanA belong to one and the same caste ? "

If it is so , then it contradicts with all the pramAnams of the type "

Thus will the devotee of Lord who is a Brahmin conduct himself and thus

will the devotee who is a sUdrA conduct himself etc ".

 

Consider the following pramAnA :

 

MahAbhArathA : AswamedhikA parvA (116.8) :" Auspicious qualities

which carry esteem do not arise from caste . The demigods (devAs) consider

as a Brahmin even a chandAlA who conducts himself in accordance with his

caste "

 

It is also evident from many pramAnams quoted above that the caste of

a devotee doesn't change because of his devotion , though he has to be

highly respected & adored for his devotion ( the terms used in the

pramAnAs inherently assumes that a devotee belongs to a particular varnA).

For that matter , even though a strI (lady) is a great devotee of Sriman

NArAyanA & is a BrAhmini , sastrAs doesn't allow her to recite vedAs,

perform Agnihotrams etc. On top of these , yuga dharmA also imposes

restrictions .

 

There are pramAnams which state that the prapannAs from various castes are

equal ,which is in the sense of attainment of the final goal , namely

moksham . So , there is a kulam called Sri Vaishnava kulam wherein everyone

are so great that all are certain to reach Sri Vaikuntam since they adopt

prapatti . But this word kulam is not be confused with caste (ie. jAti/varnA

 

).

 

PeriAzhvAr in his Thirup pallAndu says "pandaik kulaththai thavirthu

pallAndu ..." (We will give up our former kulam & sing pallAndu to

perumAL ).

 

So , instead of being a materialist , now one becomes a Sri VaishnavA

fixed in kainkaryams .

 

Let us see Sri Peria AchAn PiLLai's conclusion on Thirumangai

AzhwAr's pAsurm 1.1.9 " kulam tharum ..." ( "The name "NArAyanA" ,

confers a (higher) kulam .." ) :

 

"If a man who is low by birth & by conduct attains contact with BhagavAn

, one who has both should shrink from calling him low , because of the

potency of his devotion to BhagavAn "

 

Sri PiLLai LokAchAryA says that one must have high reverence for a

prapannA , whatever may be his caste & is one of the greatest offenses to

treat him with indifference , disregard , ill will or contempt on the

ground of his caste .

 

But these doesn't advocate the change of varnA according to devotion ,

since by very definition varnA is based on body.

 

Sri Peria AcchAn PiLLai very categorically states this in his commentary

to the verse 219.6.5 in Garuda PurAnam :

 

verse :

"Bhakti or devotion is of eight kinds. If bhakti is found in a mleccha, he

should be considered a devout and knowing Brahmin. To him , giving is

proper & taking is proper .He should be treated with the same reverence as I

 

myself "

 

Sri PVP's commentary : " This doesn't mean that strIs (ladies) can be given

in marriage to him and the like , but he may be given the gift of knowledge

and the like "

 

So AchArya reminds us that inter-dining ,inter-marriage (say between

a BrAhmana strI & a sUdra man , even though both of them are devotees )

etc are prohibited in sAstrAs (smruthIs are the main references for these).

 

For instance in MahAbhArathA: Aswamedhika ParvA 118.14 , BhagavAn says

"Therefore , a sUdrA shouldn't utter My names with pranavA " . Only a

devotee is going to recite the names of BhagavAn Sriman NArAyanA . But He

Himself instructs such devotees , not to utter pranavA.

 

SAstrAs always explicitly mention the dharmAs of a varnA . Consider the

following verse from VarAha PurAnam ( 139.53) :

"The man born of the caste of those who eat dog's flesh woke up as

soon as the day dawned , finished his observance which consisted in

singing the praise of Bhagavan and returned after uttering the mantra

'Namo NArAyanA ' "

 

According to the specific varnA, the mantrA needs to be recited

with/without pranavam etc. sAstrAs explicitly enjoins the recitation of

the mantrA like "Namo NArAyanA + dative suffix " prefixed by pranavA ,

when the Upadesam is for say a BrAhmanA .

 

The point is that one must have high reverence for a devotee irrespective of

 

his caste , but the code of conduct between the devotees of various varnAs

(which in one sense a restriction / limit) is specified by sAstrAs.

 

For instance , if the sAstrAs eulogizes the devotees of Sriman

NArAyanA as follows ( Vihagendra SamhitA) : "The man who is always

thinking of Sriman NArAyanA - whatever be the calling (vritti) he follows

for his living , that is adoration ; whatever he says (jalpah) is japam;

whatever he sees is meditation or dhyAnA ; the water that has received

contact with his feet is incomparably holy water ; whatever is left after he

 

has eaten will purify ; his mere words are a sacred mantrA; whatever he

touches becomes pure " .

 

What a grand eulogy of the devotees of Sriman NArAyanA ! All are true; but

the eulogy is restricted by the sAstrAs again ie. it shouldn't

violate sAstrAs.

 

"his mere words are a sacred mantrA " : If a devotee speaks on

materialistic affairs , it doesn't become a mantrA .

 

"whatever he touches becomes pure " : Can a devotee touch liquor &

say it has become pure & drink? For instance , in VarAhapurAnam , Lord

VarAhA says " The VaishnavA who touches blood even without knowing what it

is - I never condone his offence , O goddess of earth , even after

thousand apologies " . So , the eulogy is restricted again by pramAnAs. It

holds good as long as it doesn't violate sAstrAs .

 

So the pramAnAs which eulogize the devotees from all castes are valid

as long as it doesn't violate other pramAnAs.

Now , the question arises as to how to deal with those born in a

BrAhmanA family & doesn't perform karmA according to that varnA .

Enough PramAnAs are present (some already quoted) which verily chastises

such persons. If a BrAhmanA is not a devotee of Sriman NArAyanA , he has

to be considered a chandAlA only ie. no more can he be respected as a

BrAhmanA .

 

A very popular quote from DakshaSmruthi : "The man (whomsoever are

ordered to perform ) who doesn't perform the rites pertaining to sandhyA

is ** always impure ** & is * unfit * for the performance of any

other rite. Whatever other rite or karmA he may perform , he will not

obtain the fruit thereof " .

 

Such men who doesn't perform SandhyAvandanam eventhough born in a

BrAhmanA family can't enter perumAL sannidhi , can't enter temples , can't

prostrate to elders , perumAL & the like , can't dine with other BrAhmanAs

etc , since they are always impure ( nithya theetu ie. permanant Asoucham) .

 

A dhoora strI (ladies in menstrual cycle) is prohibited to do certain

activities because of the theetu . Similarly , the men who according to

their varnA should perform SandhyAvandanam , somehow doesn't perform it,

gets theetu & is thus forbidden from performing many activities .

 

Thus , by "BrAhmanAs" sAstrAs mean those born in BrAhmanA family & live upto

 

the standards of BrAhmanA & likewise.

 

Now let us see the Ultimate Analysis by which all the previous

discussions would become very clear :

 

Sathvam Of the Body & the Sathvam of the Mind :

 

SwAmi Desikan explains the difference between the sathvam of the body &

the sathvam of the mind.

 

MahAbhArathA :Aswamedhika ParvA (40.11) states " Tamas (ignorance,

sloth etc) is found in great measure in the sUdrA , rajas in the kshatriyA

and sathvam in the BrAhmin " .

 

The qualities of caste pertaining to the body which are due to the

special qualities of the body ,arise even at the time of birth & remains

until death. Thus , the varnA is fixed by birth , due to the type of body.

These qualities of body which can't be observed by naked eye , somehow make

the body either pure or impure for the performance of certain karmAs.

 

But, a sUdrA eventhough has the predominance of Tamas in the

composition of his body , can very well obtain the quality of sathvam

in his mind. It is because of the preponderance of sathvam in the minds of

sUdrAs & the like , the sAstrAs eulogize them & instructs everyone to

respect them highly for their devotion to Sriman NArAyanA. For great

devotees like PrahlAdA , the preponderance of sathvam in the mind was

present from the very birth. Anyone can obtain the preponderance of

sathvam in one's mind by the mercy of a SadAchAryA .

 

It must be noted that if a man born in other castes acquires the higher

virtues , he will be extolled highly as stated in the Vishnu PurAnA slokA

6.2.6 : " Men are to be honoured in the following order of preference - for

the possession of vidyA (J~nAnA) , of right karmA , of age, of relatives &

of wealth . Even a sUdrA possesing these is fit to be honoured in old age "

..

 

It is ** very very important ** to note that the excellence arising

from the body & from qualities of the mind were to cause pride or

arrogance , it would lead to evil consequences . One should for certain

develop Akinchanyam ( feeling of lowliness / lack of virtues) in the lines

of AzhvArs & AchAryAs who have set the right example :

 

Tirucchanda Viruttam (90) : " I was not born in any of the four castes

where dharmA could be practised " (your referred pAsuram, Charchitha)

Stotra Ratnam (61) : "I was born in a family renowned in the world

wherein everyone was pure & performed yogA (upAsanA) , where everyone knew

the truth about prakruti with its three qualities and the jIvAs , where

everyone had their mind firmly fixed at Your (Sriman NArAyanA) Lotus Feet &

yet I inclined to commit sin & am now sunk in samsArA, O Saviour ".

 

KArpanya (utter humility , lowliness etc) is very essential for a

PrapannA , since it forms as one of the angAs of Prapatti .

 

Thus , though there are regulations regarding castes and the code of

conduct pertaining to each caste, there is nothing to prevent a person

from being honoured "in the mind" .

 

Exceptional cases / Doubts :

 

a. What about AzhvArs from lowly castes ? : AzhvArs as true devotees

of Sriman NArAyanA lived according to the varnAshrama dharmA. They never

violated it. No one can even be compared for the exaltedness of their

supreme devotion unto Sriman NArAyanA . Anyway AzhvArs are certainly

exceptional cases . The point is that , they are Nitya SoorIs having taken

the incarnation out of their mercy to preach to the suffering jIvAtmAs.

 

b. VidurA : VidurA himself says "As I was born a sUdrA , I can't teach

any further " (MahabhArathA:Udyoga ParvA 41.5 ) , since initiation into

vidyAs (upAsanAs) , mantrAs and the like should be only from a BrAhmanA.

But Sri KrishnA ate at his house because he was certainly a premier

devotee.

 

Anyway ApasthambA in his dharma sootrA (2.2.4) states that SUdrAs who

are under the supervision of AryAs are competent to cook for AryAs . In

yugAs other than kali , sUdrAs having great qualities were permitted to

cook the food for AryAs under their own supervision. MahAbhArathA:

UdyogaparvA 91.43 says " The pure VidurA having the qualities necessary

for it , brought the food ".

 

c. VisvAmitrA : He became a BrAhmanA after being a kshatriyA because of

the special causes , as the charu ( oblation of grain cooked in milk and

other things) eaten by his mother without knowing that it was intended for

producing a Brahmin child .

 

There are some more episodes which may seem to be contradictory , but

actually they aren't .

 

Performance of Rites according to VarnA & AshramA :

 

Lord KrishnA in His GIta Upadesam says "One shouldn't give up karmA

ordained for the varnAs & the AshramAs .Their omission arising from

ignorance is renunciation due to tamas " & "He who gives up karmA because

it is painful & fatiguing to the body - he renounces owing to rajas and does

 

not obtain the fruit of renunciation " (Bhagavad GItA 18.7,8 ).

 

Rather , one should perform the prescribed karmAs with sAthvIka

tyAgam ( kartrutva tyAgam ie. without the doership attitude + mamatA

tyAgam ie. without the attitude of "mine" + phala tyAgam ie. without any

want of fruits / solely for the pleasure of Sriman NArAyanA) .

 

To perform the karmA ordained for a man with the thought that it is

an end in itself and that it ought to be done without the desire for gain of

 

any kind - this is O ArjunA , tyAgam (renunciation) due to sathhvam "

(Bhagavad GItA 18.9 ).

 

Glories of VarnAshrama DharmA :

 

 

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE GopaladEsika Mahadesikaya namah:

Dear Sri Rajaram,

 

Thanks for your response.

Not all AzhwArs were non brahmins. (I do not know about nAyanmArs). And

AzhwArs were "mayarvaRa mathinalam arULap peRRavargaL"; They are the

incarnations of the most merciful Lord Sriya: Pathi Sriman Narayanan's

paraphrenelia (sent as delgates by the Lord) to rectify and correct the

baddha jIvAthmAs (us). we refuse to get done is another issue:-(

 

the pramAnAs are both sruthi and smruthi. Sruthis (Vedas) and smruthis

(ithihAsas, purANAs) have declared as described in the earlier posting. If

any text contradcits Vedas, it is to be rejected as Vedas are apourushEyam

(authorless). EmperumAn does not violate His own command and instructions

(i.e. Vedas as they are His breath).

 

All pramANAs eulogize the devotees from all castes are valid as long as it

doesn't violate other pramAnAs.

 

In short, summary of the previous posting:

 

1. varNAs are based on body and fixed by birth.

2. Though the nature of jIvAtmA are essentially same, the type of body it

gets according to its karmA determines the varNA and therefore its dharmAs /

duties / type of kainkaryams.

3. varNAs and the related karmAs associated with it as a way of performing

ArAdhanA(worship) to Sriman nArAyaNA are only for baddha jIvAtmAs, and is

irrelevant for muktAs and nitya soorIs. As long as one is in this leelA

vibhUti, one has to follow the varNAshrama dharmA.

4. Irrespective of the varNA, everyone can perform kainkaryam to SrIman

nArAyaNA. This doesn't mean that one can do whatever one likes to. SAstrAs

as the divine commmands of Sriman nArAyaNA specifies it for the welfare of

everyone / society as a whole .

5. The eligibility to perform intimate kainkaryams to PerumAL arises after

undergoing samAsrayanam and anyone irrespective of the caste can undergo it.

6. Anyone irrespective of the caste can attain moksham through prapatti

wherein the Divya dampati are themselves the upAyam(means)to attain them.

7. All prapannAs / bAgavathAs irrespective of varNA are glorifiable and

should be highly respected with heart and mind.

8. Ardent devotion to Sriman nArAyaNA doesn't change varNA since varNA is

based on the body one acquires at the time of birth.

9. The code of conduct among prapannAs / bhAgavathAs are to be in accordance

with varNAshrama dharmAs and not according to one's own whims and fancies.

 

Are varNas based on birth ?

 

This is an already well-settled issue in PUrva-MImAmsa. All the possible

objections (including that of one being a brAhmaNa based upon only his

qualities) are taken into account and is decisively, the siddhAnta is made

that only "Birth" fixes the varNa. Smrutis etc ofcourse re-states the same

view. For instance, Sage Aapasthambha, in his very starting (SUtras 4-8) of

his most-famous DharmaSAstra Sutras says

 

"chatvArO varNA brAmhaNa-kshatriya-vaiSya-sUdrAH |

tEshAm pUrvaH pUrvO janmataH SrEyAn |

aSoodrANAm-adushTakarmaNAm-upAyanam vEdAdhyayanam-agnyAdhEyam

phalavanti cha karmANi |

SuSrUshA SUdrasyEtarEshAm vaRNAnAm |

pUrvasminpUrvasminvarNE ni:SrEyasam bhUyaH | "

 

ie. "There are four varNas : BrAhmaNa, Kshatriya, VaiSya and SUdra. Among

these, each preceding varNa is superior by birth to each subsequent. Those

who are not SUdras and are not guilty of evil deeds may undergo upanayanam,

perform vEda-adhyayanam and agni-related rites; These rites yield the

results/fruits. SUdras are to serve the other varNas ; The higher the varNa

they serve, the greater is their prosperity".

 

Those who say that one becomes a brAhmaNa only due to their qualities, don't

accept ladies with very good qualities as a brAhmaNa and be eligible for

performing yAgam, as archakas in temples, recite Vedas etc !!

(Extracted from Sri Anand Karalapakkam's article)

Thus, one becomes a Srivaishnavan by pancha samskaram (and the qualities);

but brahmin is by birth.

Regards

Namo Narayana

aDiyEn

 

 

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Dear Sri Madhavakannan -

 

Thanks for your knoweldgeable comments. What are the

DIRECT statements from sruti and smrti indicating

caste is by birth only ? Knowing this would convince

me.

 

While I do not want to base my arguments based on Al

Beruni's comments, it definitely gives a pointer to

the state of society. The fact that there is

degradation is clear from the fact that except for

brahmins (that too some) others do not perform the

samskaras.

 

Rajaram V.

 

--- Madhavakkannan V <srivaishnavan

wrote:

> SrI:

> SrImathE GopaladEsika Mahadesikaya namah:

> Dear Sri Rajaram,

>

> Thanks for your response.

> Not all AzhwArs were non brahmins. (I do not know

> about nAyanmArs). And

> AzhwArs were "mayarvaRa mathinalam arULap

> peRRavargaL"; They are the

> incarnations of the most merciful Lord Sriya: Pathi

> Sriman Narayanan's

> paraphrenelia (sent as delgates by the Lord) to

> rectify and correct the

> baddha jIvAthmAs (us). we refuse to get done is

> another issue:-(

>

> the pramAnAs are both sruthi and smruthi. Sruthis

> (Vedas) and smruthis

> (ithihAsas, purANAs) have declared as described in

> the earlier posting. If

> any text contradcits Vedas, it is to be rejected as

> Vedas are apourushEyam

> (authorless). EmperumAn does not violate His own

> command and instructions

> (i.e. Vedas as they are His breath).

>

> All pramANAs eulogize the devotees from all castes

> are valid as long as it

> doesn't violate other pramAnAs.

>

> In short, summary of the previous posting:

>

> 1. varNAs are based on body and fixed by birth.

> 2. Though the nature of jIvAtmA are essentially

> same, the type of body it

> gets according to its karmA determines the varNA and

> therefore its dharmAs /

> duties / type of kainkaryams.

> 3. varNAs and the related karmAs associated with it

> as a way of performing

> ArAdhanA(worship) to Sriman nArAyaNA are only for

> baddha jIvAtmAs, and is

> irrelevant for muktAs and nitya soorIs. As long as

> one is in this leelA

> vibhUti, one has to follow the varNAshrama dharmA.

> 4. Irrespective of the varNA, everyone can perform

> kainkaryam to SrIman

> nArAyaNA. This doesn't mean that one can do whatever

> one likes to. SAstrAs

> as the divine commmands of Sriman nArAyaNA specifies

> it for the welfare of

> everyone / society as a whole .

> 5. The eligibility to perform intimate kainkaryams

> to PerumAL arises after

> undergoing samAsrayanam and anyone irrespective of

> the caste can undergo it.

> 6. Anyone irrespective of the caste can attain

> moksham through prapatti

> wherein the Divya dampati are themselves the

> upAyam(means)to attain them.

> 7. All prapannAs / bAgavathAs irrespective of varNA

> are glorifiable and

> should be highly respected with heart and mind.

> 8. Ardent devotion to Sriman nArAyaNA doesn't change

> varNA since varNA is

> based on the body one acquires at the time of birth.

> 9. The code of conduct among prapannAs / bhAgavathAs

> are to be in accordance

> with varNAshrama dharmAs and not according to one's

> own whims and fancies.

>

> Are varNas based on birth ?

>

> This is an already well-settled issue in

> PUrva-MImAmsa. All the possible

> objections (including that of one being a brAhmaNa

> based upon only his

> qualities) are taken into account and is decisively,

> the siddhAnta is made

> that only "Birth" fixes the varNa. Smrutis etc

> ofcourse re-states the same

> view. For instance, Sage Aapasthambha, in his very

> starting (SUtras 4-8) of

> his most-famous DharmaSAstra Sutras says

>

> "chatvArO varNA brAmhaNa-kshatriya-vaiSya-sUdrAH |

> tEshAm pUrvaH pUrvO janmataH SrEyAn |

> aSoodrANAm-adushTakarmaNAm-upAyanam

> vEdAdhyayanam-agnyAdhEyam

> phalavanti cha karmANi |

> SuSrUshA SUdrasyEtarEshAm vaRNAnAm |

> pUrvasminpUrvasminvarNE ni:SrEyasam bhUyaH | "

>

> ie. "There are four varNas : BrAhmaNa, Kshatriya,

> VaiSya and SUdra. Among

> these, each preceding varNa is superior by birth to

> each subsequent. Those

> who are not SUdras and are not guilty of evil deeds

> may undergo upanayanam,

> perform vEda-adhyayanam and agni-related rites;

> These rites yield the

> results/fruits. SUdras are to serve the other varNas

> ; The higher the varNa

> they serve, the greater is their prosperity".

>

> Those who say that one becomes a brAhmaNa only due

> to their qualities, don't

> accept ladies with very good qualities as a brAhmaNa

> and be eligible for

> performing yAgam, as archakas in temples, recite

> Vedas etc !!

> (Extracted from Sri Anand Karalapakkam's article)

> Thus, one becomes a Srivaishnavan by pancha

> samskaram (and the qualities);

> but brahmin is by birth.

> Regards

> Namo Narayana

> aDiyEn

>

>

>

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