Digest Number 532

[Guest guest]

>Dear Bhagvatottamas,

<

>Recently there had been some correspondence regarding the meaning of the

>word "iyengar". The word "i" denoting five is also a Tamil word (not

>Sanskrit, Telugu and Kannada alone). I am attaching a mail on the subject

>forwarded by adiyEn's brother Sri TCA Sadagopan.

>

 

Adiyen would like to add a few more reflections on this. Etymologically ai

in tamil kannada and telugu is the initial part of the word Aindu,aidu in

tamil and kannada. But I wonder how I or Ay or AI of various forms

of iyengar denote 5. Since iyengars have panchasamskaram it is

conveniently imagined that origin of iyengar is this.

 

But when we consider the word Iyengar on par with Iyer we have to explain

what has panchasamskaram to do with Iyers.

 

With this point of view, if we contemplate on the word ARYA of samskrit,

it flashes that Aiyya, iyya, aiyyan etc are the downward derivatives of

ARYA which means respectable elderly person or gentleman.

In this context some member asked the meaning of HEBBAR. In kannada

Haaruva means Paarpaan or brahmin. The prefix HEB to Haaruva makes it

HEBBAR(uva) to mean super brahmin or big brahmin ( the iyengars usually).

 

Coming back, we might have come across words like emm Aiyan iraamanujsan.

Aiyyan here is a respectable elderly wellwisher endearing gentleman. For

iyers this Aiyan was converted into Aiyer or Iyer. In the case of

srivaishnavas, Aiyan became Aiyen+ gars adding GAR to increase

respectability and for differentiation of subcastes, though we do not

know when such a inter-social understanding came about.

Besides, Aiyengars are also variously spelled as Iyengar Ayyangar etc

precluding any relation with five in my opinion.

 

Incidentally there is also a group called AAyangaar which is the title of

AAyi Jananyaacharya family (guru Of SRI Manavalamaamunigal) which is

meaning motherly gentleman (who gave cooled milk to God as for a child).

So this debate may continue with other members' feedbacks.

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Ramanuja

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Ramanuja,

 

You are correct that "ai" or "i" in Tamil and other

south indian languages represents five in one sense.

However, the concern you raise about "ay" etc. is

is an issue of transliteration. Ultimately one

expects that they all mean the same thing no matter

how spelled. Since we don't seem to know for sure

what the origin of the word is, one can only

speculate based on the word. In that sense all

interpretations have to remain on equal footing;

one does not become a larger fancy of the

imagination than the other.

 

In addition, I don't see the necessity to equate

it with the term Iyer, though it might seem

necessary to do so because of the brahminical

order in Tamilnadu.

 

Speculating freely then, one can break up the

word in Tamil as i + angam + ar (those with the

five parts) and hence the relation to the

panchasamskaram. Speculating even further, one

can even think of it as iyan + kar(ar) - those

in the duty of the high one or the Lord. Perhaps

in the fashion of the sandhi rules in Sanskrit,

in combination this became iyengar. I do not

know of a Tamil word such as "gar" with some

meaning, so I am not sure how that would fit

with iyan.

 

Others have speculated that it could be the

Telugu word of respect "garu". Is the word

"iyan" one that stands for a noble person

in Telugu also? If it is, then that would also

make sense.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

 

 

--- "M.N.Ramanuja" <mnr wrote:

> Adiyen would like to add a few more reflections on

> this. Etymologically ai

> in tamil kannada and telugu is the initial part of

> the word Aindu,aidu in

> tamil and kannada. But I wonder how I or Ay or AI of

> various forms

> of iyengar denote 5. Since iyengars have

> panchasamskaram it is

> conveniently imagined that origin of iyengar is

> this.

>

> But when we consider the word Iyengar on par with

> Iyer we have to explain

> what has panchasamskaram to do with Iyers.

>

> With this point of view, if we contemplate on the

> word ARYA of samskrit,

> it flashes that Aiyya, iyya, aiyyan etc are the

> downward derivatives of

> ARYA which means respectable elderly person or

> gentleman.

> In this context some member asked the meaning of

> HEBBAR. In kannada

> Haaruva means Paarpaan or brahmin. The prefix HEB to

> Haaruva makes it

> HEBBAR(uva) to mean super brahmin or big brahmin (

> the iyengars usually).

>

> Coming back, we might have come across words like

> emm Aiyan iraamanujsan.

> Aiyyan here is a respectable elderly wellwisher

> endearing gentleman. For

> iyers this Aiyan was converted into Aiyer or Iyer.

> In the case of

> srivaishnavas, Aiyan became Aiyen+ gars adding GAR

> to increase

> respectability and for differentiation of subcastes,

> though we do not

> know when such a inter-social understanding came

> about.

> Besides, Aiyengars are also variously spelled as

> Iyengar Ayyangar etc

> precluding any relation with five in my opinion.

>

> Incidentally there is also a group called AAyangaar

> which is the title of

> AAyi Jananyaacharya family (guru Of SRI

> Manavalamaamunigal) which is

> meaning motherly gentleman (who gave cooled milk to

> God as for a child).

> So this debate may continue with other members'

> feedbacks.

>

> Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

> Ramanuja

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Venkatesan,

 

Regarding the roots of the word "Iyengar", my interpretation could be a

fancy also. I did not mean to offend by using the word fancy of

imagination. All interpretation are welcome as long as they satisfy basic

rules of sanskrit and Tamil grammar and history too. It is very common to

have multiple interpretations in the absence a deciding knowledge of

historical facts.

 

BTW, the word "Aiyyam" of tamil origin found in Tiruppavai and in

Tirukkural has several meanings like gift, hospitality to guests, doubt,

fear hesitation etc. Tamil pulavars in the list can shed some light on

whether it is possible to rope in any of these meanings to give plausible

explanation. Particularly after many philosophical opponents were

defeated, we were all looked upon as prativadi bhayankaras creating fear

in others. Or they very hospitable to guests etc.

 

Adiyen

Ramanuja dasan