Creation

[Guest guest]

Dear Members,

 

In Message: 10 of 30 Apr 2002,

THE HOW AND WHY OF CREATION,

the web address given viz., www.space.com/space library/books did not lead to

the web-page. The complete link is

http://www.space.com/spacelibrary/books/library_reagan_011221.html

 

The page gives a review of the book

The Hand of God: Thoughts and Images Reflecting the Spirit of the Universe

and also an interview with the author Michael Reagan, both of which are

thought-provoking.

Thanks are due to "jayasartn" for bringing this to the notice of the members.

 

Dasan,

M.K. Krishnaswamy

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namah

 

dear devotees,

 

i looked up the vyAkhyAnams for some places where

the word "padaiththal" occurs in the divya

prabhandham..as many people have written, all the

commentators take the word to mean "shristi" only..

not "creation".....i had the wrong interpretation

earlier...

 

if that is the case, then the *why* re: srishti is

simple.. the souls are bound by karma, and hence He

provides them with faculties to know about Him and

reach Him.

 

I personally find it difficult to digest the lack of

power of "Creation" of the Lord though..

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

varadhan

 

 

 

 

Health - your guide to health and wellness

http://health.

[Guest guest]

SrI:

Dearest srivaishnavas,

 

Creation - if it amounts to creating new jIvAs (though the Lord is capable

of) then it amounts to starting everything fresh. meaning: He needs to be

partial in the beginning and as to what basis the first birth takes shape

on, if it is not bound by Karma.

(as also vouched in Gita that the jIva is eternal).

 

na thvEvAham jAthu nAsam na thvam mamE janAdhipA: |

na chaiva na bhavishyAma: sarvE vayamatha: param. ||

 

There was and never will b any time when we shall cease to exist. I, the

Supreme self, and the Lord am eternal and ever existing. In the same way,

you, arjunA and the others too who are all here, are all eternal. Just as I

am beginningless and eternal, you (jiVas) are also. You were all existing

and will continue to exist.

 

This Karma and Jiva- it is like the tree and the seed concept. The tattva

thrayam (Chith, achith and Iswaran) have always been there either in

sUkshumam (fine) or in sthUlam (gross).

 

The Divine principle (the Lord)- Paramathman- Iswaran- Sriya: Pathi Sriman

Narayanan is the material cause of the manifested worlds as well as the

nimitta and Sahakari (instrumental and auxiliary) causes. The entire

position of Cosmology is explained in SarIra SarIri relationship. The

Paramathman is the SarIri and teh sarIra is the Universe or the worlds and

jIvas/ The relationship is inseparable at anytime.

 

Each of these jIvas is eternal and persists independently in its own nature

even in the state of praLaya. Each new srishthi is a repetition of earlier

order at a higher level. The cyclic spriral evolution carries on till the

peak is touched. Thus praLaya and srshti become enfolding and unfolding of

the process.

 

Thirumazhisai AzhwAr writes:

Thirucchandha viruttham (10)

 

thannuLE thiraitthezhun tharanga veN thadankadal

thannulE thiraitthezhundhu adanguginRa thanmai pOl

ninnuLE piRandhu iRandhu niRpavum thiribavum

ninnulE adanguginRa neermai ninkaN ninRandhE..

 

This answers all our doubts. The deep vast sea which has the entire gamut of

waves in them, brings the waves out to a huge heights and takes it back to

itself.. Similarly, in You, the movable and the non movable (the chith and

achith) are born out of You and then ultimately go back to You during

praLaya. (forgive me for my poor translation)

 

Bhattar also refers this to peacock spreqading its beauitful feathres out

while dancing and takes is back.

 

So, the jiVA is bound by its karmA which is anAdhi like the jIva itself.

 

Trust I have not confounded the confusion.

Regards

Namo narayana

aDiyEn

 

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[Guest guest]

SRIMATE RAMANUJAYA NAMAH!

 

The nearly 2 dozen postings on the question of why of creation were

food for thought and thought- provoking too.

 

Let me in this message attempt to give some interpretations for the

few questions further raised in the other messages and bring to the

notice of the learned devotees some information on the question of

why of creation. At the same time I honestly request the devotees to

kidly pardon me for any mistake / lapse in this message.

 

Now the questions:-

 

QUESTION 1.

IS IT RIGHT FOR THE SEEKER OF VEDANTIC TRUTH TAKE CUES FROM THE

LIMITED REALM OF PHYSICS/ SCIENCE?

 

In the interpretation of texts and in the defence of their

philosophy, reason is to be fully utilised. Vedanta is not a cult

based on mere faith, but a philosophgical inquiry employing methods

of logical investiagtion. Even the Visishtadvada school of thought

recognises the validity of observation, perception and inference. Sri

Ramanuja had underscored the need to supplement and augment the

primary scripture of Vedanta with the secondary scriptures like

ITHIHASA, SMIRITI TEXTS as also DIVYA PRABANDAHAM.

 

But today's massive strides in astronomy and cosmology are too

tempting to draw parallels and seem suitable enough to look at

Vedanta through the prism of physics too. (Infact aren't the

physicists too attempting to unravel the difficult question of our

beginnings?)

In my humble opinion it is not wrong to make such attempts. For is

it not also a part/ branch of knowledge enshrined in the knowledge of

the Absolute? But that it is also incompltete in answering the basic

queries as any other branch of knowledge is indiputable!

 

At another level, loking at the mundane / physical world, one gets

initiated into the meta physical world. As one gets divulged with awe

into the observable things outside, the appreciation of the subtle

springs up. Of particular interest is the subtle exposition of the

subtler essence of visishtathvaitha as one can experience in the

pasuram 845 (NDP) of THIRUCHANDA VIRUTHAM

 

" OONIN MEYA AAVI NEE, URAKKAMODU UNARCHI NEE.

AANIN MEYA AINDUM NEE, AVATRUL NINDRA THOOIMAI NEE.

VAANINODU MANNUM NEE, VALAM KADAL PAYANUM NEE,

YAANUM NEE ADANDRI EN PIRANUM NEE ERAMANE!

(Yaanum nee -advaitic;

en piranum nee - visesha advaitic)

 

The inquiry into the sthoola, trains the mind to look into the

shookahma aspects of the sthoola. That is probably the reason the

practioner is advised to go in stages from the ordiunary (mundane)to

the ethereal.

 

 

QUESTION 2.

DOES CREATION ENTAIL CREATION OF JIVAS, THE NON LIVING OR THE

CREATION OF THE UNIVRERSE FROM BIG BANG ONWARDS?

 

Ramanuja holds that souls are not created. They are birthless and

eternal. Souls have existed in BRAHMAN from all eternity as a mode

(prakara) of BRAHMAN. so have the elements. At the time of creation ,

the elements undergo a change in their essential nature, and

therefore are said to be originated, but the jiva doesn't undergo any

change. There is only an expansion of their intelligence, making them

fit to enjoy the fruit of their karma, and so they are said to be

uncreated. Hence texts which speak of their creation mean only their

expansion of theuir intelligence , like sparks emnating rom fires

(BRAHMA SUTRAS)

The term creation (srushti) also is found missing in texts like

Taittriya upanishad. It only uses the term 'sprang' ('BRAHMANA

VIPASCHITHETI)

" fROM AKASHA , SPRANG VAAYU, FROM VAAYU AGNI, FROM AGNI JALAM, FROM

JALAM PRITHVI, FROM PRITHVI OSHDAYAH(PLANTS) FROM PLANTS ANNAM, FROM

ANNAM MANG, isn't it?)

 

In the first chapter of Taiittriya upanishad, upasana of 5 MAHA

SAMHITHAS is recommended to the disciple. The MMAHASAMHITHAS namely,

ADHI LOKAM, ADHI JYOTHISHAM, ADHI VIDHYAM, ADHI PRAJAM AND ADHYATHMAM

trace the evolution of the subtle in the sthoola.

 

QUESTION 3

CAN THE QUESTION OF CREATION AND THE NATURE OF CRAETION BE EXPLAINED

BY OUR LIMITED PERCEPTION?

 

Certainly not. But that need not be a dettereent for the seeker to

put in place the pieces that he/ she gets to understand to build a

better undwerstanding of the question.

It is said

YATHO VACHO NIVARTHANTE/ APRAPYA MANASA SAHA/ (TAI II-9)

(FROM WHERE SPEACH TOGETHER WITH THE MIND TURNS AWAY)

Here a question arises, talking in a literal sense - When will

something be turned away? After striking something? Is it sent back?

(like echo)if so it can be assumed that the words and the mind have

actually struck the BRAHMAN but for want of a wholesome experience

(as aided by manas, vigyana and ananda) they can not understand and

are turned back.

Can it be like this? Like the 6 blind persons who actually got to

explore the big elephant, but understood only in parts due to their

limited perception and came out with varying description of the

elephant.Our words and perception are similar to this and hence it is

said unless one has experienced It, one cannot explain It (But

kandavar vindilar and vindavar kandilar is also true)

Therefore it is said, AANADAM BRAHMANO VIDVAN/ NA BIBHETHI

KUTASCHANETHI/ (TAI II-9)

(the one who has attained or experienced the BRAHMANANDAM feels no

fear)

Strtching this, it can be said our perception, though limited and the

subsequent inference can lead us towards the right path of

knowledge,TOWARDS brahman, of course with the aid of scriptures and

acharya anugraha.

 

QUESTION 4

DO SCRIPTURES ANSWER WHY CREATION HAS HAPPENED?

 

The answer lies in the ii chapter of BRAHMA SUTRAS (sutras 32 and 33)

NA PRAYOJANAVANTHVATHU/

LOKAVANTHU LEELA KAIVALYAM/

(BRAHMAN's creation has no motive behind except a sportive impulse)

 

Nobody engages in any action without a motive or purpose. But did God

have a motive to create? This purpose can be two fold. It can be

either to satify one's own desire or for the sake of others. Brahman

being self sufficient, It has nothing to gain for Itself by the

creation of this world.If it is for the sake of others- the jivas, to

get released from bondage, It could have created a world full of

happiness. But herein comes to play the law of karma according which

the jivas dispose of their bondage.

34 th sutra of the Brahma sutra implies that God takes into account

the past karma of various beings before creating them as gods, men or

lower animals. (A man becomes good by good work, bad by abd work-

Brihadaranyaka)The lord is only the operative cause in the creation

of beings, the main cause is the past karma of the jivas. Just as

rain helps differenrt seeds to sprout, each according to nature, ao

the lord is the general efficient cause in bringing the latent

tendencies of each individual into fruition.

 

That the reason is LEELA is also confirmed by

NDP

 

Read NAMMAZHWAR THIRUVAIMOZHI -3002 (IN THE JANMAM PALAPALA - 7th

PASURAM 7th LINE )

 

THUNBAMUM INBAMUM AAGIYA SAI VINAIYAI

ULAGANGALUMAI

INBAMIL VEN NARGAHGI INIYA NAL

VAAN SWARGANGALUMAI

MAN PALLUYIRGALUMAGI PALA PALA

MAAYA MAYAKKUGALAL

INBURUM EV VILAYAATTUDAIYANAI

PETRATHUM ALLINANE

 

( vilaiyaattudaiyanai - the one who effected creation as a sport/

play)

read ramanuja's SHARANAGATHI GHADHYAM.

THE following lines depict creation as a LEELAI

 

"SWA SNAKALPAANUVIDHAYI SWAROOPASTHITHI PRAVRITHI SWASESHATAIKA

SWABHAVA PRAKRITHI PURUSHA KAALAATHMAKA VIVIDHA VICHITHRANTHA BHOGHYA

BHOKTHRU VARGA BHOGOPAKARANA BHOGHATHANA ROOPA NIKILA JAGAT UDHAYA

VIBHAVA LAYA LEELA/

 

QUESTION 5

DOES NOT TELLING OF CREATION AS A SPORT, PAINT A BAD PICTURE OF THE

LORD, WHO THEN WILL BE SEEN AS ENJOYING THE SUFFERINGS OF THE

JIVAS? DOES IT NOT AMOUNT TO GIVING A BAD ATTRIBUTE TO HIM

PARTICULARLY WHEN HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ATTRIBUTE LESS?

 

For this we must attempt to answer what is LEELA. Is vilaiyattu a

game of playing with the lives of the JIVAS? If karma is the only

cause of creation, the scope for LEELA does not arise. It can only be

said that God was highly compassionate enough to show a way out for

the Jivas to cross the 'Piravi Perum kadal'But why LEElA?

If it is vilayattu, both HE and the JIvas must be able to enjoy the

play. Jivas can not be omitted from the LEELA game for they form a

part of it because it is for them , that Creation holds a larger

meaning.So when or how can they become part of the play and enjoy it

too? (By asking this question . all that I am trying to do is to

build a logical answer, taking help from scriptures. For, this LEELA

part , in my limited knowledge of the scriptures has not been

extensively discussed.

To draw some supportive information,

"In the beginning, dear boy, there was this being alone, one and

only"( Chandogya vi -ii-1)

35th Brahman sutra (chapter ii) says no!The Jivas and their karma

form an eternal stream which is beginningless.Individual Jivas are

not created but existed even before creation in a subtle form as in-

distinguishable from BRAHMAN " All this was unmanifest. It became

manifest only as name and form" (Brahadaranuyaka)

"know that Prakriti and Purusha are both beginningless (Gita xiii, 19)

when scriptures talk of creation, they mean only the beginning of a

new cycle. This is borne out by texts like, "The lord devised the Sun

and the Moion as before" (Rig Veda) Hence shedding of karma become sa

motive in subsequent cycles.

Assuming as scriptures say, that the cycles had no beginning,and were

anaadhi, Why call it a LEELA?

 

Thinking of -"IT WILLED, 'MAY I BE MANY'" ( CHANDOGYA)

"He sees without eyes, He hears without ears, without hands and feet

He hastens and grasps" (Swetasvatahra)

-shall we say that

-the unmanifest which possessed all forms of manifestation -

- the attributeless one which had all the attributes -

indulged in the LEELA to bring out the arttributes into manifested

forms.

-To see for Itself and enjoy the many praises of Its own Vibhoothi -

of Its attributes as sung by the Jivas who inturn can become relieved

from bondage singing in praise of Him.

Then don't we say that the Lord is STHUTHI PRIYAN OR ALANKARA PRIYAN

etc?

Can we conclude that the primary cause of creation was to bring out

manifestations to sing the praise of God.

The Nithya suris are already there singing in praise of the Lord.

And it is for the manifest Jivas to derive pleasure in extolling the

graetnmess of the Lord thereby sheddig of the karma bondage.

Did THIRUMAZHISAI ALWAR had this in mind when he said,

"SOLLINAL PADAIKKA, 'NEE' PADAIKKA VANDU THONDRINAR" (THIRICHANDA

VIRUTHAM, 762 NDP)

(To sing in praise of you, YOU have created them )

or is the LEELA another version of BRAHMAN COMING TO RESIDE IN THE

JIVA rather than vice versa.

Innumerable examples from NDP can be cited to substantiate this.

a few -

"UNAKKU IDAMAAI IRUKKA ENNAI UNAKKU URITHAKKINAIYE" (471, PERIYALWAR)

 

"MUTHANAAR MUKUNTHANAAR PUGUNDU NAMMUL MEVINAAR"(866, THIRUCHANDA

VIRUTHAM)

 

Instead of the well publicised(?) goal of the Jiva reaching HIM, the

prospect of HIM coming to glow in the jiva is probably the LEELA God

had been fascinated about. Probably this is right or not necessarily

so. But then both are true for, BRAHMAN encompasses everything, both

right and wrong,as perceived by scriptures!

 

ONCE AGAIN BEGGING FOR PARDON FOR MISTAKES IN INTERPRETATION (THOUGH

UNINTENTIONAL)

 

jayasree sarnathan.