Guest guest Posted April 30, 2002 Report Share Posted April 30, 2002 Dear Members, In Message: 10 of 30 Apr 2002, THE HOW AND WHY OF CREATION, the web address given viz., www.space.com/space library/books did not lead to the web-page. The complete link is http://www.space.com/spacelibrary/books/library_reagan_011221.html The page gives a review of the book The Hand of God: Thoughts and Images Reflecting the Spirit of the Universe and also an interview with the author Michael Reagan, both of which are thought-provoking. Thanks are due to "jayasartn" for bringing this to the notice of the members. Dasan, M.K. Krishnaswamy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 srImathE rAmAnujAya namah dear devotees, i looked up the vyAkhyAnams for some places where the word "padaiththal" occurs in the divya prabhandham..as many people have written, all the commentators take the word to mean "shristi" only.. not "creation".....i had the wrong interpretation earlier... if that is the case, then the *why* re: srishti is simple.. the souls are bound by karma, and hence He provides them with faculties to know about Him and reach Him. I personally find it difficult to digest the lack of power of "Creation" of the Lord though.. adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan, varadhan Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2002 Report Share Posted May 3, 2002 SrI: Dearest srivaishnavas, Creation - if it amounts to creating new jIvAs (though the Lord is capable of) then it amounts to starting everything fresh. meaning: He needs to be partial in the beginning and as to what basis the first birth takes shape on, if it is not bound by Karma. (as also vouched in Gita that the jIva is eternal). na thvEvAham jAthu nAsam na thvam mamE janAdhipA: | na chaiva na bhavishyAma: sarvE vayamatha: param. || There was and never will b any time when we shall cease to exist. I, the Supreme self, and the Lord am eternal and ever existing. In the same way, you, arjunA and the others too who are all here, are all eternal. Just as I am beginningless and eternal, you (jiVas) are also. You were all existing and will continue to exist. This Karma and Jiva- it is like the tree and the seed concept. The tattva thrayam (Chith, achith and Iswaran) have always been there either in sUkshumam (fine) or in sthUlam (gross). The Divine principle (the Lord)- Paramathman- Iswaran- Sriya: Pathi Sriman Narayanan is the material cause of the manifested worlds as well as the nimitta and Sahakari (instrumental and auxiliary) causes. The entire position of Cosmology is explained in SarIra SarIri relationship. The Paramathman is the SarIri and teh sarIra is the Universe or the worlds and jIvas/ The relationship is inseparable at anytime. Each of these jIvas is eternal and persists independently in its own nature even in the state of praLaya. Each new srishthi is a repetition of earlier order at a higher level. The cyclic spriral evolution carries on till the peak is touched. Thus praLaya and srshti become enfolding and unfolding of the process. Thirumazhisai AzhwAr writes: Thirucchandha viruttham (10) thannuLE thiraitthezhun tharanga veN thadankadal thannulE thiraitthezhundhu adanguginRa thanmai pOl ninnuLE piRandhu iRandhu niRpavum thiribavum ninnulE adanguginRa neermai ninkaN ninRandhE.. This answers all our doubts. The deep vast sea which has the entire gamut of waves in them, brings the waves out to a huge heights and takes it back to itself.. Similarly, in You, the movable and the non movable (the chith and achith) are born out of You and then ultimately go back to You during praLaya. (forgive me for my poor translation) Bhattar also refers this to peacock spreqading its beauitful feathres out while dancing and takes is back. So, the jiVA is bound by its karmA which is anAdhi like the jIva itself. Trust I have not confounded the confusion. Regards Namo narayana aDiyEn _______________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 SRIMATE RAMANUJAYA NAMAH! The nearly 2 dozen postings on the question of why of creation were food for thought and thought- provoking too. Let me in this message attempt to give some interpretations for the few questions further raised in the other messages and bring to the notice of the learned devotees some information on the question of why of creation. At the same time I honestly request the devotees to kidly pardon me for any mistake / lapse in this message. Now the questions:- QUESTION 1. IS IT RIGHT FOR THE SEEKER OF VEDANTIC TRUTH TAKE CUES FROM THE LIMITED REALM OF PHYSICS/ SCIENCE? In the interpretation of texts and in the defence of their philosophy, reason is to be fully utilised. Vedanta is not a cult based on mere faith, but a philosophgical inquiry employing methods of logical investiagtion. Even the Visishtadvada school of thought recognises the validity of observation, perception and inference. Sri Ramanuja had underscored the need to supplement and augment the primary scripture of Vedanta with the secondary scriptures like ITHIHASA, SMIRITI TEXTS as also DIVYA PRABANDAHAM. But today's massive strides in astronomy and cosmology are too tempting to draw parallels and seem suitable enough to look at Vedanta through the prism of physics too. (Infact aren't the physicists too attempting to unravel the difficult question of our beginnings?) In my humble opinion it is not wrong to make such attempts. For is it not also a part/ branch of knowledge enshrined in the knowledge of the Absolute? But that it is also incompltete in answering the basic queries as any other branch of knowledge is indiputable! At another level, loking at the mundane / physical world, one gets initiated into the meta physical world. As one gets divulged with awe into the observable things outside, the appreciation of the subtle springs up. Of particular interest is the subtle exposition of the subtler essence of visishtathvaitha as one can experience in the pasuram 845 (NDP) of THIRUCHANDA VIRUTHAM " OONIN MEYA AAVI NEE, URAKKAMODU UNARCHI NEE. AANIN MEYA AINDUM NEE, AVATRUL NINDRA THOOIMAI NEE. VAANINODU MANNUM NEE, VALAM KADAL PAYANUM NEE, YAANUM NEE ADANDRI EN PIRANUM NEE ERAMANE! (Yaanum nee -advaitic; en piranum nee - visesha advaitic) The inquiry into the sthoola, trains the mind to look into the shookahma aspects of the sthoola. That is probably the reason the practioner is advised to go in stages from the ordiunary (mundane)to the ethereal. QUESTION 2. DOES CREATION ENTAIL CREATION OF JIVAS, THE NON LIVING OR THE CREATION OF THE UNIVRERSE FROM BIG BANG ONWARDS? Ramanuja holds that souls are not created. They are birthless and eternal. Souls have existed in BRAHMAN from all eternity as a mode (prakara) of BRAHMAN. so have the elements. At the time of creation , the elements undergo a change in their essential nature, and therefore are said to be originated, but the jiva doesn't undergo any change. There is only an expansion of their intelligence, making them fit to enjoy the fruit of their karma, and so they are said to be uncreated. Hence texts which speak of their creation mean only their expansion of theuir intelligence , like sparks emnating rom fires (BRAHMA SUTRAS) The term creation (srushti) also is found missing in texts like Taittriya upanishad. It only uses the term 'sprang' ('BRAHMANA VIPASCHITHETI) " fROM AKASHA , SPRANG VAAYU, FROM VAAYU AGNI, FROM AGNI JALAM, FROM JALAM PRITHVI, FROM PRITHVI OSHDAYAH(PLANTS) FROM PLANTS ANNAM, FROM ANNAM MANG, isn't it?) In the first chapter of Taiittriya upanishad, upasana of 5 MAHA SAMHITHAS is recommended to the disciple. The MMAHASAMHITHAS namely, ADHI LOKAM, ADHI JYOTHISHAM, ADHI VIDHYAM, ADHI PRAJAM AND ADHYATHMAM trace the evolution of the subtle in the sthoola. QUESTION 3 CAN THE QUESTION OF CREATION AND THE NATURE OF CRAETION BE EXPLAINED BY OUR LIMITED PERCEPTION? Certainly not. But that need not be a dettereent for the seeker to put in place the pieces that he/ she gets to understand to build a better undwerstanding of the question. It is said YATHO VACHO NIVARTHANTE/ APRAPYA MANASA SAHA/ (TAI II-9) (FROM WHERE SPEACH TOGETHER WITH THE MIND TURNS AWAY) Here a question arises, talking in a literal sense - When will something be turned away? After striking something? Is it sent back? (like echo)if so it can be assumed that the words and the mind have actually struck the BRAHMAN but for want of a wholesome experience (as aided by manas, vigyana and ananda) they can not understand and are turned back. Can it be like this? Like the 6 blind persons who actually got to explore the big elephant, but understood only in parts due to their limited perception and came out with varying description of the elephant.Our words and perception are similar to this and hence it is said unless one has experienced It, one cannot explain It (But kandavar vindilar and vindavar kandilar is also true) Therefore it is said, AANADAM BRAHMANO VIDVAN/ NA BIBHETHI KUTASCHANETHI/ (TAI II-9) (the one who has attained or experienced the BRAHMANANDAM feels no fear) Strtching this, it can be said our perception, though limited and the subsequent inference can lead us towards the right path of knowledge,TOWARDS brahman, of course with the aid of scriptures and acharya anugraha. QUESTION 4 DO SCRIPTURES ANSWER WHY CREATION HAS HAPPENED? The answer lies in the ii chapter of BRAHMA SUTRAS (sutras 32 and 33) NA PRAYOJANAVANTHVATHU/ LOKAVANTHU LEELA KAIVALYAM/ (BRAHMAN's creation has no motive behind except a sportive impulse) Nobody engages in any action without a motive or purpose. But did God have a motive to create? This purpose can be two fold. It can be either to satify one's own desire or for the sake of others. Brahman being self sufficient, It has nothing to gain for Itself by the creation of this world.If it is for the sake of others- the jivas, to get released from bondage, It could have created a world full of happiness. But herein comes to play the law of karma according which the jivas dispose of their bondage. 34 th sutra of the Brahma sutra implies that God takes into account the past karma of various beings before creating them as gods, men or lower animals. (A man becomes good by good work, bad by abd work- Brihadaranyaka)The lord is only the operative cause in the creation of beings, the main cause is the past karma of the jivas. Just as rain helps differenrt seeds to sprout, each according to nature, ao the lord is the general efficient cause in bringing the latent tendencies of each individual into fruition. That the reason is LEELA is also confirmed by NDP Read NAMMAZHWAR THIRUVAIMOZHI -3002 (IN THE JANMAM PALAPALA - 7th PASURAM 7th LINE ) THUNBAMUM INBAMUM AAGIYA SAI VINAIYAI ULAGANGALUMAI INBAMIL VEN NARGAHGI INIYA NAL VAAN SWARGANGALUMAI MAN PALLUYIRGALUMAGI PALA PALA MAAYA MAYAKKUGALAL INBURUM EV VILAYAATTUDAIYANAI PETRATHUM ALLINANE ( vilaiyaattudaiyanai - the one who effected creation as a sport/ play) read ramanuja's SHARANAGATHI GHADHYAM. THE following lines depict creation as a LEELAI "SWA SNAKALPAANUVIDHAYI SWAROOPASTHITHI PRAVRITHI SWASESHATAIKA SWABHAVA PRAKRITHI PURUSHA KAALAATHMAKA VIVIDHA VICHITHRANTHA BHOGHYA BHOKTHRU VARGA BHOGOPAKARANA BHOGHATHANA ROOPA NIKILA JAGAT UDHAYA VIBHAVA LAYA LEELA/ QUESTION 5 DOES NOT TELLING OF CREATION AS A SPORT, PAINT A BAD PICTURE OF THE LORD, WHO THEN WILL BE SEEN AS ENJOYING THE SUFFERINGS OF THE JIVAS? DOES IT NOT AMOUNT TO GIVING A BAD ATTRIBUTE TO HIM PARTICULARLY WHEN HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ATTRIBUTE LESS? For this we must attempt to answer what is LEELA. Is vilaiyattu a game of playing with the lives of the JIVAS? If karma is the only cause of creation, the scope for LEELA does not arise. It can only be said that God was highly compassionate enough to show a way out for the Jivas to cross the 'Piravi Perum kadal'But why LEElA? If it is vilayattu, both HE and the JIvas must be able to enjoy the play. Jivas can not be omitted from the LEELA game for they form a part of it because it is for them , that Creation holds a larger meaning.So when or how can they become part of the play and enjoy it too? (By asking this question . all that I am trying to do is to build a logical answer, taking help from scriptures. For, this LEELA part , in my limited knowledge of the scriptures has not been extensively discussed. To draw some supportive information, "In the beginning, dear boy, there was this being alone, one and only"( Chandogya vi -ii-1) 35th Brahman sutra (chapter ii) says no!The Jivas and their karma form an eternal stream which is beginningless.Individual Jivas are not created but existed even before creation in a subtle form as in- distinguishable from BRAHMAN " All this was unmanifest. It became manifest only as name and form" (Brahadaranuyaka) "know that Prakriti and Purusha are both beginningless (Gita xiii, 19) when scriptures talk of creation, they mean only the beginning of a new cycle. This is borne out by texts like, "The lord devised the Sun and the Moion as before" (Rig Veda) Hence shedding of karma become sa motive in subsequent cycles. Assuming as scriptures say, that the cycles had no beginning,and were anaadhi, Why call it a LEELA? Thinking of -"IT WILLED, 'MAY I BE MANY'" ( CHANDOGYA) "He sees without eyes, He hears without ears, without hands and feet He hastens and grasps" (Swetasvatahra) -shall we say that -the unmanifest which possessed all forms of manifestation - - the attributeless one which had all the attributes - indulged in the LEELA to bring out the arttributes into manifested forms. -To see for Itself and enjoy the many praises of Its own Vibhoothi - of Its attributes as sung by the Jivas who inturn can become relieved from bondage singing in praise of Him. Then don't we say that the Lord is STHUTHI PRIYAN OR ALANKARA PRIYAN etc? Can we conclude that the primary cause of creation was to bring out manifestations to sing the praise of God. The Nithya suris are already there singing in praise of the Lord. And it is for the manifest Jivas to derive pleasure in extolling the graetnmess of the Lord thereby sheddig of the karma bondage. Did THIRUMAZHISAI ALWAR had this in mind when he said, "SOLLINAL PADAIKKA, 'NEE' PADAIKKA VANDU THONDRINAR" (THIRICHANDA VIRUTHAM, 762 NDP) (To sing in praise of you, YOU have created them ) or is the LEELA another version of BRAHMAN COMING TO RESIDE IN THE JIVA rather than vice versa. Innumerable examples from NDP can be cited to substantiate this. a few - "UNAKKU IDAMAAI IRUKKA ENNAI UNAKKU URITHAKKINAIYE" (471, PERIYALWAR) "MUTHANAAR MUKUNTHANAAR PUGUNDU NAMMUL MEVINAAR"(866, THIRUCHANDA VIRUTHAM) Instead of the well publicised(?) goal of the Jiva reaching HIM, the prospect of HIM coming to glow in the jiva is probably the LEELA God had been fascinated about. Probably this is right or not necessarily so. But then both are true for, BRAHMAN encompasses everything, both right and wrong,as perceived by scriptures! ONCE AGAIN BEGGING FOR PARDON FOR MISTAKES IN INTERPRETATION (THOUGH UNINTENTIONAL) jayasree sarnathan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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