The why of creation.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaktas,

I have been a silent participant in the group and have

immensely benefited from all of your postings. This is

the first time I am posting a mail. I wanted to know

whether there is any scriptual context in which the

following questions have been answered. I will be

extremely grateful and thank you all in advance for

your invaluable replies:

1. Before the universe became manifested there was

nothing existing and everything was unmanifested form

and contained in god. The question that arises is "Why

did god create universe and the living beings?"

2. Because the cycle of karma, rebirth etc started

only after creation, the question of karma etc should

be non-existent before bod created universe etc.

Pardon me for my ignorance and if I have offended

anyone by these questions, I apoligise in advance.

Adiyen,

Ramanuja Dasan.

Ranganathan Sounderrajan

 

 

 

 

 

Health - your guide to health and wellness

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ranganathan, the issues such as karma, universe in unmanifested form

etc. are all eternal cycles. there was no beginning! this concept is very

hard to agree. I agree that only realization is the real answer, not a

logical text or speech answer which reaches our mind. we have to understand

the concept of cycles: ie. souls, god, matter in a cycle of unmanifest and

manifest states which alternate and proceed from beginningless time to

eternity. there is no one unmanifest state from which creation proceeds.

there is an infinite number of prior manifest and unmanifest states before

any particular unmanifest state!

 

you may ask why this cycle? why did god eternally will such vulnerable jivas

who though intrinsically perfect, are liable to bondage due wrong use of

free will? the deeper irony is that god is perfect and most merciful even

though we are all stuck here!. this can be explained only as a divine lila

which is still a merciful act of God who is an eternal friend to everyone.

the only real answer I have felt as valid is :

 

bhidyate hridaya granthih chiddhyante sarva samsayah tasmin driste paravare

- all knots in the hearts are untied, all doubts are cleared, when that God

is realized.

asya mahimanam iti vita shokah - svetasvetara, all this is the glory of the

lord, when one realizes this truth, that person transcends all sorrows.

 

adiyen krishna

 

 

govt auditor [govaudit]

Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:10 AM

bhakti-list; oppiliappan

The why of creation.

 

 

Dear Bhaktas,

I have been a silent participant in the group and have

immensely benefited from all of your postings. This is

the first time I am posting a mail. I wanted to know

whether there is any scriptual context in which the

following questions have been answered. I will be

extremely grateful and thank you all in advance for

your invaluable replies:

1. Before the universe became manifested there was

nothing existing and everything was unmanifested form

and contained in god. The question that arises is "Why

did god create universe and the living beings?"

2. Because the cycle of karma, rebirth etc started

only after creation, the question of karma etc should

be non-existent before bod created universe etc.

Pardon me for my ignorance and if I have offended

anyone by these questions, I apoligise in advance.

Adiyen,

Ramanuja Dasan.

Ranganathan Sounderrajan

 

 

 

 

 

Health - your guide to health and wellness

http://health.

 

 

-----------------------------

- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list

Group Home: bhakti-list

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[Guest guest]

SriRAma Jayam,

SrimatE RAmAnujAya nama:

 

Dear Ranganathan,

I felt like responding to your mail quoting something from

NDP. When you go by sruti,you are caught in a loop out of which

you're not able to escape. Once, for an infinitesimal sec,I got

attracted to sankara's philosophy but my dear RAmAnujA gripped me

tightly.

 

I personally don't agree to beginningless karmA/jIvA. It wasn't

coexisting with God all the time! It must have come only after the

creation. From NDP,I can quote off-handedly,Amalam AdipirAn:9 "Ala mA

maratin ilai mEl...en nenjinaiyE". TiruppAN AzhwAr sang only on

Azhagiya MaNavALan/Ranganatha. Kulashekharan's Tirumozhi:8:7 "Alin

ilai bAlagaNAy anRu ulagam....ayoDthimanE tAlElO". What I infer from

NDP is that PerumAL was there alone for some time. Then He created

the universe. I don't think that HE created Himself,and karmA/jIvA

simultaneously!

 

If one can answer why HE did such such a thing,then it means that you

know how HE thinks! GItAchAryan says nobody(means NOBODY)knows the

secret of His birth.

 

There are lots of people in scientific field who talk jargons so that

others don't understand and also have a fear that they might be

questioned!(that's why they use hi-fi words).

 

May be you should put the question at the feet of Lord SriRanganatha

Himself.

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr TiruvadigaLE saraNam

sarvam krSNArpaNam astu

gita

 

Quote:It's easy to make things appear complex,but to go in the

opposite direction,requires a touch of genius - Albert Einstein

 

 

bhakti-list, govt auditor <govaudit> wrote:

> Dear Bhaktas,

> I have been a silent participant in the group and have

> immensely benefited from all of your postings. This is

> the first time I am posting a mail. I wanted to know

> whether there is any scriptual context in which the

> following questions have been answered. I will be

> extremely grateful and thank you all in advance for

> your invaluable replies:

> 1. Before the universe became manifested there was

> nothing existing and everything was unmanifested form

> and contained in god. The question that arises is "Why

> did god create universe and the living beings?"

> 2. Because the cycle of karma, rebirth etc started

> only after creation, the question of karma etc should

> be non-existent before bod created universe etc.

> Pardon me for my ignorance and if I have offended

> anyone by these questions, I apoligise in advance.

> Adiyen,

> Ramanuja Dasan.

> Ranganathan Sounderrajan

>

>

>

>

>

> Health - your guide to health and wellness

> http://health.

[Guest guest]

I am afraid smt. Gita's views as per NDP are not right. In nammalwar's

works, I am sure there is reference to cyclic creation, dissolution and

creation stages. I am not able to find the right verse. I am sure someone

can. In sms chari's book on philosophy of the tamil saints, it is listed.

 

adiyen Krishna

[Guest guest]

SriRAma Jayam,

SrimatE RAMAnujAya nama:

 

Dear Krishna,

 

I made a statement explicitly saying that "off-handedly

(without referring to the text)" in those two AzhwAr's pasuram,we

recognize "praLaya". If I'm right(my tamizh has become weak due to

lack of touch)amalan means world and adipirAn means the

First/Beginning Cause/God. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Kulashekhara Azhwar says in mannu pugazh

"pundarIka malar adan mEl bhuvani ellam padaiththavanE....RAghavanE

tAlElO". What does this mean? HE creates the worlds/universes not

that they co-exist with Him. Nammazhwar says in Ozhilvil kAlamellAm

(Koil Tiruvoimozhi 3:3:5)that HE is the Prime God. These are the

pasurams I chant daily,so I said "off-handedly". All I meant was

AzhwArs had said that it is HE who creates the Universe.

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr TiruvadigaLE saraNam

sarvam krSNArpaNam astu

gita

 

 

 

bhakti-list, "Krishna Kashyap" <kkalale1@s...> wrote:

> I am afraid smt. Gita's views as per NDP are not right. In

nammalwar's

> works, I am sure there is reference to cyclic creation, dissolution

and

> creation stages. I am not able to find the right verse. I am sure

someone

> can. In sms chari's book on philosophy of the tamil saints, it is

listed.

>

> adiyen Krishna

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Krishna Kaasyap:

 

You probably have ThiruvAimozhi 1.1.7 Paasuram in mind:

 

"ThidavisumperivaLi--SuranE",

where Swamy NammAzhwAr celebrates the Lord

a sthe creator of al things from pancha bhUthams

and dissolves them during PraLayam and recreates .

There are additional places also, where other AzhwArs as well as

Swamy NammazhwAr stress this point .The place to enjoy

this above quoted paasuram of Swamy NammazhwAr is

to connect to AaRaayirappadi , where more than

six dozen Veda pramAnamams and PurANa-IthihAsa

citations are made .

 

V.Sadagopan

At 12:46 AM 5/2/02 -0700, you wrote:

>I am afraid smt. Gita's views as per NDP are not right. In nammalwar's

>works, I am sure there is reference to cyclic creation, dissolution and

>creation stages. I am not able to find the right verse. I am sure someone

>can. In sms chari's book on philosophy of the tamil saints, it is listed.

>

>adiyen Krishna

>

>

>

>

>-----------------------------

> - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

>To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list

>Group Home: bhakti-list

>Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

bhakti-list, "vaidhehi_nc" <vaidhehi_nc> wrote:

> Dear Krishna,

>

> I made a statement explicitly saying that "off-handedly

> (without referring to the text)" in those two AzhwAr's pasuram,we

> recognize "praLaya". If I'm right(my tamizh has become weak due to

> lack of touch)amalan means world and adipirAn means the

> First/Beginning Cause/God.

 

Dear Vaidhehi,

 

'amalan' comes from the Sanskrit 'amala' or 'a+mala',

meaning he who is without any defect or flaw. Amalan

refers to the Pure Stainless Lord. As an interesting

comparison, 'amalatva' or absolute purity is one of

the essential attributes of the Supreme in Sri Ramanuja's

philosophy (svarUpa-nirUpaka-dharma).

 

I am not a scholar of the Nalayira Divya Prabandham,

but I am pretty sure whenever the Alvars refer to

creation they mean emanation in the Vedantic sense,

and not ex nihilo creation a la Christianity or Islam.

Emanative creation is a fundamental axiom of nearly

all Eastern religions including the many varieties of

religious thought in India. The idea of ex nihilo

(out of nothing) creation is absent in India to my

knowledge. The very idea of something coming from

nothing is inconceivable in this context, and I would

be very surprised if the Alvars would be exceptions

to this general trend.

 

For example, Nammalvar is quite clear that when

the Lord creates the universe, He *becomes* the universe --

'kaDal ~nAlam ceydEnum yAnE ennum,

kADal ~nAlam AvEnum yAnE ennum ...'

 

These words are said by the nAyikA (lovelorn heroine)

who in her ecstatic anubhava identifies so much with

her lover (the Lord) that she experiences the act of

creation itself. The second line in this poem explains

that not only does the Lord create (ceydEnum), but

he also *is* (AvEnum) the entire universe. I find

little support in the Divya Prabandham for a different

type of creation.

 

Now, as to the "why" of creation -- strangely enough

this question is never really asked by any of our Vedantic

philosophers such as Sankara, Ramanuja, etc., as far

as I know. It's merely accepted that the jIva is forever

embroiled in samsAra out of beginningless karma (anAdi

mAyayA suptaH according to the gaudapAda kArika, an axiom

accepted by all schools of Vedanta). In fact, if I am

not mistaken this very vAkya is quoted in the introduction

to several of the traditional commentaries on the Divya

Prabandham.

 

ramanuja dasa,

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaidhehi

What Mani has told is correct reg the "Amalan" - meaning Stainless Lord,

here our Poorvacharyas clears the doubt that though He resides within all as

AntharyAmi, none of the dhoshams of JeevAthma will attach to Him, He is like

a "Tamarai Ilai Thanneer".

 

Reg the

'kaDal ~nAlam ceydEnum yAnE ennum,

its a beautiful pAsuram of Anukaram by nammalAlwar. Also reg the creation ,

Alwar' s pathigam of

" Onrum Thevum ulagum uyirum marrum yAthum .."

shows He creates nAmugan, and other thevAs after pralayam, and during

pralayam no one other than Him will be there ..

I feel this shows the Parathvam of Him (correct me if I am wrong), In this

pathigam Alwar says dont think only Paramapadha Nathan has the parathvam ,

our ArchA moorthy (polindhu ninra pirAn - Thiru kurugoor ) which is known

for soulabyam and totally expects some one to even move from one place to

another , also has the parathvam - excellent piece by Alwar.

 

Here our poorvAcharyas explains the dual but contrasting qualities of Him as

"AghadithaGadanA" sakthi (correct me if I am wrong) . The contrasting one is

"vYabhagam" - seen by the above anukaram paasuram

and "AntharyAmithvAm"

 

But as Mani told I have not encountered a answer for why? I think its

"leelA"

 

 

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Gunaseelan Venkatachary

Ph - 408 588 6672 (W)

guna_venkat

[Guest guest]

Respected Members,

 

I was reading some discussions on 'Creation' theroy.

Thre were some discussions like, ' Nothing existed

before creation' etc..

 

During process of creation, elders consider that

'Whole universe' existed in the mode of 'Sokkshuma

Avastha'

that is, it is NOT that there existed a 'Vacuum'

before process of creation. All the matter(pancha

boothas) were residing in the stomach of the Lord and

it expanded at His Will. (Remember, Lord residing as

Vata Patra Sayee)

 

As per Visishtadvaita , there is nothing like

'nothingness'. All the matter, would ONLY 'transform'

and DOES NOT get destroyed. For instance, a clay

pot(which is made out of all or some of Pancha

boothas) when broken and buried, would 'TRANSFORM' in

to to some soil or mud, or any material(again one or

more of pancha boothas). The same hold good for body,

land, trees etc. All these would ONLY transform TO

SOME other substance.(This is only considered as their

destruction)

 

After the process of creation, it is called as 'Stula

Avastha', that is all the matter gets dispersed, and

continues to get 'TRANSFORMED'(everytime they get

destroyed)..several times, before it joins Him again

in the in the next pralaya.

 

This is how Sri Ramanuja explained the 'nothingness'

Swami derives his theory from Swami Nammlwar in the

TVM verses 1.1 TO 1.10.

 

Dasan

 

KM Narayanan

 

 

 

Health - your guide to health and wellness

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Dear members,

i don't remember the verse, but i remember reading somewhere in

the bhagavatham that the Supreme Lord engages in creation as a

sport/recreation for Him.Also, the Supreme Lord being very

considerate , gives opportunity to jivas in Vaikuntha planets who

have developed dvesha/hatred or a sense of independence from Him to

lord over something(the material creation will give the jiva of a

false sense of independence).But, when this dvesha arises cannot be

known because there is no time in spiritual world.

 

Please correct my understanding if i am wrong.

In your service

K.N.Sriram

 

[ In the opinion of the Upanishads and Brahma-Sutras as

understood by most commentators including Sri Ramanuja,

there can be no return from Vaikuntha. The Brahma-Sutra

concludes emphatically, "There is no return, on account

of the declaration in the Veda; there is no return,

on account of the declaration in the Veda." (anAvRttiH

SabdAt; anAvRttiH SabdAt). Furthermore, Vaikuntha is

by definition a place where ignorance and limitation of

consciousness have absolutely no reign. Therefore, there

is no question of a jIva developing hatred or a sense of

independence from the Supreme Brahman.

 

Sri Ramanuja is even more explicit in his comments on this

sUtra. Not only will the jIva not return on his own accord,

but neither will the Highest Person, having finally obtained

the jIva for which He had been thirsting for so long, send

the jIva out of His realm (na ca ... paramapurushaH ...

atyartham jnAninam labdhvA, na kadAcid api AvartayiSyati).

 

Theories which posit a "return" or "fall" from Vaikuntha

are at variance with the Vedanta and the Vedantic tradition

as a whole. -- Moderator ]