re: question on creation

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namah,

 

 

dear devotees,

 

The following are just my thoughts regarding the issue

of creation. Please take it in that spirit.

 

regarding creation the following seems to be two

possible scenarios..

 

scenario (1):

 

karma is beginningless. Souls are beginningless. Souls

 

are stuck in the birth/death cycle. the Lord is

unaffected by the karma cycle, but He constrains

Himself (or is constrained?) to provide the

fruits/punishments according to each and everyone's

karma (except for the saraNAgathi escape hatch). And

in His infinite kindness, He works constantly to save

souls from being perpetually in the karma cycle.

 

scenario (2):

 

karma and souls were created by the Lord, and are

under His complete control. All these are created by

Him for His leela. (actually, we might never

understand why He does it). Due to His infinite

kindness, He works constantly to save the souls from

being perpetually in the karma cycle.

 

There are pros and cons of each scenario. For scenario

 

(i), the questions that arise in me are "So, is the

Lord just a supersoul who found us caught in this

samsAra and is trying to rescue us?Given our

relationship with Him, as the things that constitute

His body, how is it possible that the infinite Lord

finds His own constituents in a state of cyclic

birth/death and *then* works on rescuing us?"

 

For scenario (2), the question that arises in me

is "Why does He have to create souls/karma and then

put the souls into this sorrow and then rescue them?"

 

As far as the pramANAs etc. go, to my limited

exposure, it seems like vEdAnta texts support

scenario (1) and the nAlAyiram supports scenario (2).

 

for e.g. thiruvAymozhi - "aaruyirEyO agalidam muzhudum

 

padaiththu idandhu uNdu umizhndu aLandhu"..

 

rough translation - "Oh the dear one who created,

saved, swallowed, regurgitated and measured the

entire universe".

 

And in many other verses, the word "padaiththal"

(creating) is used in the sense of creating souls and

everything else.

 

To me personally, I find the latter appealing. I want

my Lord to be all-powerful, unconstrained and

unquestioned. For I know that His kindness is

limitless AND that He does what is the best for ALL

his constituents (though we may not appreciate it, or

recognize it). Given such a Lord who spares no

efforts to rescue me (who is His property),would I

like Him to be constrained by anything?

 

Also, the eternal relationship between the soul and

the Lord, the one of complete servitude (sEshatva)

resonates very well with the second scenario. After

all, we owe our very existence to Him, so it makes

sense that we are completely subservient to Him.

 

That still leaves the question of "Why?" - There can

be

no answer to this I feel. If we use the word "leela"

in the generic sense, then we leave Him in a position

where we can technically ascribe cruelty to Him. the

AzhvArs use the word "mAyai" (mAyA) to refer to His

deeds, and that might be the most illuminating

explanation. We just do not know and cannot find out.

 

With respect to scenario (1), I do have

the "sarvamukthi" question - If the souls are not

created by anyone, theoretically, one fine day, there

 

will be no soul in the leela vibhUti.. Every soul will

 

be in nithya vibhUti, and does this universe cease to

exist then? If one considers that the souls can be

created at will be the Lord, then of course the

question of sarvamukti does not arise in the normal

course of things. Of course, if HE wishes everyone to

be in srIvaikunTa, he will take everyone, but

then "sarvamukthi" is not forced on Him.

 

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

varadhan

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

SriRAma Jayam

SrimatE RAmAnujAya nama:

 

Dear varadan,

Your second scenario is good. I thought acc. to upanisads the

word karmA refers to the world/universe and not the birth/death

cycle. Is it not so? In the book on vEdAnta sUtrA by badarayana(with

commentary by baladeva),it says that during mahA praLaya(it doesn't

say anything about the beginning,anyways I'll verify after some

thorough reading)vEdAs merge into Him and remains in Him. When He

desires,He creates the world and vEdAs in exactly the same way as it

was before(what was the condition of past is not explained)! He then

creates brahmA and teaches him vEdAs mentally(not orally) and He

gives the duty to brahma to create the lower beings(jIvAs). As you

said I feel strongly too that we would never understand His mind. Not

that I'm pessimistic but I'm optimistic about His SUpreme qualities.

By the time we try to figure out our time will come to an end!

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr TiruvadigaLE saraNam

sarvam krSNArpaNam astu

gita