Question : SaraNAgati-gadyam

[Guest guest]

SrImatE rAmAnujAya nama:

 

In SaraNAgati-gadyam SrI rAmAnujAcArya repeatedly asks the Lord for

para-bhakti, para-gyAnam & parama-bhakti .

 

This repeated requisitioning by rAmAnuja seems inappropriate with respect to the

true nature of the jIva.

 

A realized jIva knows that it is totally dependent on the unconditional saving

Mercy

of the Lord and would not ask for anything, rather leave it up to Lord's

discretion.

 

Would not a mere knowledge that God's unconditional Mercy automatically provides

everything

without having to ask, enough ?

 

Why rAmAnujAcArya would then repeatedly ask for para-bhakti, para-gyAnam &

parama-bhakti ?

 

rAmAnuja-dAsa

//Ramkumar

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe ramanujaya namaha

 

> A realized jIva knows that it is totally dependent on the

> unconditional saving Mercy

> of the Lord and would not ask for anything, rather leave it up to

> Lord's discretion.

 

The central question that can be raised here is: Is the jIva fully

realised? How does it know if it is fully realised, being alpa-jnAna

in front of the lord?

 

The jIva is still conditioned when it is in samsAra. The question of

enlightenment without the discretion of the lord is ruled out. There

should be a two way communication.

 

Regards,

 

Malolan Cadambi

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Sri:

SriRAmaJayam

SrimatE RAmAnujAya nama:

 

Dear Ramkumar,

Based on my small orbit of experience and knowledge,I

would like to share my views. I also want to caution you that "little

knowledge is dangerous".

> In SaraNAgati-gadyam SrI rAmAnujAcArya repeatedly asks the Lord for

> para-bhakti, para-gyAnam & parama-bhakti .

>

> This repeated requisitioning by rAmAnuja seems inappropriate with

> respect to the true nature of the jIva.

 

When you make a statement about "the true nature of the jIvA",you

have to be careful. Suppose I ask you "do you know what bhagavad

RAmAnuja says along these lines in His SribhASyam",do you have the

answer with you? One has to go to the person who is an expert in

that? I am learning slowly and I was told that RAmAnujA addresses

bhakti(sADyOpAyam)and nowhere addresses prapatti(siDOpAyam). Later in

Gadya trayam he pours out in the form of prapatti. I don't want to

say more along these lines as I'm myself in an infancy stage(and as

such my mind is occupied with various things).

 

> A realized jIva knows that it is totally dependent on the

unconditional saving Mercy

> of the Lord and would not ask for anything, rather leave it up to

Lord's discretion.

> Would not a mere knowledge that God's unconditional Mercy

automatically provides everything

> without having to ask, enough ?

 

Provides everything: Are you refering to material bliss or eternal

bliss(mOkshA)?

 

Many of us worship God daily. Are we all freed from EGO completely?

HE will grant mOkshA only if you're freed from EGO. So many rishis

were all experts in vEdAs but do they enjoy the vaikuNTam? Rishis had

ego,they had some flaws.

> Why rAmAnujAcArya would then repeatedly ask for para-bhakti, para-

gyAnam & parama-bhakti ?

 

RAmAnujA's life was spent for a jIvAtmA like you and me. He didn't

not ask anything for himself. He could have kept quiet after hearing

the secret(rahasya trayam). Why should he tell the entire world? His

mission was to uplift all the souls. How many times do you think of

Lord Sriman NArAyaNA in a day? If this is the state of affairs,we

need to ask that God to give us the mind(KriSNA says that HE is the

manas which undergoes conflict)to concentrate on Him and do eternal

service. RAmAnujA on behalf of us asks Lord SriRAnganAthA to give us

such a mind! One can get rid of the EGO only through single

minded/undivided devotion to God and nothing else. Can you say with

100%(I'm not asking for infinite % !)accuracy that whenever you pray

to God that your mind is fixed only on Him,Him,Him alone and nothing

else? Mind is like a monkey which jumps from one branch to another

constantly. So is samsArA. I honestly do not know if Draupadi was

granted mOkshA. But all I know is Lord vAsudEvA came to her rescue

when she was disrobed and sincerely prays to Him giving up her ego

(momentarily). Just by being an expert in vEdAs one is not going to

see the "shankha chakra gadA DAri" face to face(that's what Lord

Parthasarathy says). Giving up EGO momentarily is different from

giving it up ETERNALLY!(I always think of the movie Mira & Mira's

devotion was so much tested by KriSNA,ThyAgarAjA is another example)

 

This is my silly thought. I don't know if it carries any weightage.

 

AzhwAr EmperumAnAr Jeeyar TiruvadigaLE saraNam

sarvam krSNArpaNam astu

gita

 

Quote: If you want to make an apple pie from scratch,you must first

create the universe - Carl Sagan

[Guest guest]

SrImatE rAmAnujAya nama:

 

My original question was probably too cryptic & imprecise.

 

Let me try to re-word it.

 

I have heard "SaraNAgati is merely the knowledge that the Lord

Himself is verily the Means and the End. Therefore any action

performed or words uttered by a jIva seeking mOksha/bhakti is

svarUpa-viruddhaM (ie inconsistent with SarIrAtma-bhAva/artha-

pancaka)".

 

but I have problem understanding it with respect to SrI-rAmAnuja's

explicit requests (in SaraNAgati-gadya) to the Lord to bestow upon

him para-bhakti/para-gyAna/parama-bhakti.

 

Thanks

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja-dAsa:

//Ramkumar

 

[ The definition of saranagati presented above is the opinion

of some Sri Vaishnava acharyas, notably who draw their inspiration

from Sri Pillai Lokacharya and Sri Azhagiya Manavala Perumaal

Nayanar. Those who to the doctrines of Sri Vedanta

Desika differ in this regard. It may be useful for respondents

here to focus not on the classic Thengalai/Vadagali debate but

on the core question of Sri Ramkumar: why does Bhagavad Ramanuja

repeatedly ask for para-bhakti, para-jnAna, and parama-bhakti,

and what role do these play in his saranagati, no matter how

one defines it? Thanks, Moderator ]

[Guest guest]

Fellow Members,

 

My addendum to Ramkumar's question on the role of requesting

para-bhakti et al in saranagati appears to have led to some

misunderstanding. One member has written that my denotation

of Sri Desika's understanding of saranagati as a 'doctrine'

implies that it is a departure from 'mainstream Sri Vaishnavam'.

This was not at all my intention; indeed, one would be

hardpressed to declare any of these acharyas out of the

'mainstream', however one understood the term! In any case,

I endeavor to avoid politicizing debates like this since

there is absolutely nothing gained by doing so, so I would

never write anything with that intention.

 

To explain what I meant: in many of his works, Swami Desika seeks

to clarify what saranagati exactly means. This is because in his

time there were many subtly different understandings of the

term. We see him doing this most effectively in

Srimad Rahasya Traya Saaram, but he does it many other works as

well. As we can see in Srimad RTS, he draws on prior acharyas

such as Yamunacharya, Ramanuja, Kurattalvan, the Alvars, and the

Pancaratra Agamas among other works in his explanations.

Acharyas who have differing views, such as Sri Pillai Lokacharya,

also draw on these texts. The difference lies in the subtly

different interpretations of these various shastras and the

varying emphases placed by each philosopher.

 

In any case it is clear from many people's responses to my other

question that I am over-moderating the list. With that in mind,

I withdraw my Moderator's Comment made earlier. Please feel free

to answer Ramkumar's question as it stands.

 

Thanks,

Mani

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

 

Dear Sri Ramkumar:

 

You ask a valid question, but if you examine the issue up close, you will

see that there are two parts to it, and the first is a consequence of the

second:

 

1. What is it that qualifies the jeevatma for mOksham?

 

2. What are the requisite states the jeevAtma goes through to achieve

mOksham (as a consequence of whatever it may be - we will get to this a

little later).

 

Your first assertion that sharaNagathi (twam Eva upAya bhootho mE bhava iti

prArthanA mathihi sharaNagathihi) is a simple state of total surrender is

correct; but we also have to realize that the jeevAtma is encumbered with

substantial karmic baggage, and he has to over come this attachment to

samsaric miasma by internalizing that realization that perumAL is IT, that

srImannArAyaNa alone can save him from being stuck forever in perpetual web

of entanglements and sorrows (anantha klEsha bhAjanam) called samsAra.

 

It is now clear that it is not possible to overcome all our vAsanAs,

agnyAnam, achith sambandham without perumAL's nirhEthuka krupa (uninstigated

grace - clearly it is uninstigated because He does not need to shower it).

When swAmy emperumAnAr asks for relief mechanisms (gnyAna, bhakti, prapatti)

from perumAL, it is to underscore the assertion that only perumAL can even

provide us the tools for comprehension to comprehend that He is the upAya

and upEya. All this (para bhakti - para gnyAna - parama bhakti) are

required to internalize the understanding that he is the upAya and upEya;

who is going to give it to the jeevathma - only He can.

 

Swamy Azhagiya maNavALa pperumAL nAyanAr goes one step further in

delineating this process. He examines what provides mOksham and what keeps

us in samsAram, and describes a rational, step by step evolutionary process

for each. It is the association with perumAL that gives us the requisite

knowledge - artha panchakam - to understand that he is the upAyam (-

jeevatma, paramatma, upaya, upEya, virOdhi swarupam). When the jeevatma

turns away from this association with perumAL, and pursues achith

sambandham, he/she ends up perpetuating within the shackles of samsAra.

 

Hence, there is no contradiction when we seek perumAL's grace to evolve to

the state to understand that He alone is the upAya and purushArtha.

 

AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvaDigaLE sharaNam

 

sridhar