Countering criticism of Sripad Ramanuja's approach to Vedanta ...

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaishnavas,

 

Hare Krishna.

Dandavat Pranams.

 

I just came across this disturbing posting which seems to be wrongly criticial

of Sripad Ramanujacharya's application of Vedanta to bhakti and prapatti. The

author seems to be saying that Udaiyavar has taken sharanagati from Tamil

paasurams and is then inserting this into Vedanta which is otherwise absent of

bhakti as sharanagati. In this way, this gentlemen seems to be downplaying the

essential love for the Lord as expounded in Vedanta.

 

How may we counter this ?

 

I have placed the relevant articles below for contextual purposes and have

highlighted the more crucial sections in bold.

 

 

 

Vaishnava dasanudasan

R. Jai Simman

Singapore

 

 

 

 

from meykandar

> Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:41:19 +0800

> "Dr.K.Loganathan" <subas

> Ramanuja 2-2

>

> 2-2

>

> Vedaartta SaGkraham of Ramanuja

>

> ­Ã¡Á¡Ûfâý §Å¾¡÷ò¾ .íìÃ?õ

>

>

> ¯¼ø¸Ç¢ø «¨¼ì¸ôÀð¼ ¿¢¨Ä, f£ÅÛìÌ «Åý ±ó¾ ¯¼Ä¢ø §º÷óÐûÇ¡§É¡ «ó¾ ¯¼§Ä ¾¡É¡¸ ¿õÀ¢

Å¡ú¾¨Ä ¯Õš츢Ţθ¢ÈÐ. («ó¾ó¾ ­É ¯¼ÖìÌ ²üÈ Å¢ÕôÒ, ¦ÅÚôÒ¸Ù¼ý Å¡ú¸¢È¡ý) ­ó¾ô ¦À¡ö

¿õÀ¢ì¨¸, ¾Å¢÷ì¸ ÓÊ¡Áø ±øġŨ¸ô ÀÂí¸¨Ç, ¯Ä¸ Å¡ú쨸¢ø ¯ûǨŠÀüÈ¢ì ¦¸¡ñÎ ÅÕ¸¢ýÈÐ.

ÓØ §Å¾¡ó¾ ÅÊÅÓõ, ­ó¾ À¢ÈÅ¢ô ÀÂí¸¨Çô §À¡ì¸§Å ÓÂÖ¸¢ÈÐ. «ôÀÂí¸Ç¢ý «Æ¢¨Å º¡¾¢ì¸

§Å¾¡ó¾ º¡ò¾¢Ãí¸û ¸£úÅÕÅÉÅü¨È §À¡¾¢ì¸¢ýÈÉ:

>

> 1) ¯¼¨Äì ¸¼ó¾¾¡¸§Å f£Å¡òÁÉ¢ý ­Âü¨¸ ¯ûÇÐ.

>

> 2) f£Å¡òÁÉ¢ý ¾ý¨Á¸û

>

> 3) f£Å¡òÁ¡ì¸û, f¼ôÀ¢ÃÀïºõ ­Ãñ¼¨ÉÔõ ¯ûÇ¢ÕóÐ ­ÂìÌõ («¼ì¸¢Â¡Ùõ) ÀÃÁ¡òÁ¡Å¢ý º¡ÃÁ¡É

­Âü¨¸ò ¾ý¨Á ( ¦º¡åÀõ)

>

> 4) ÀÃÁ¡òÁ¡Å¢ý ̽í¸û

>

> 5) ºÃ½¡¸¾ô Àì¾¢ô ÀÃÁ¡òÁò ¾¢Â¡¿õ

>

> 6) «ò¾¨¸Â ¾¢Â¡¿õ «¨¼Å¢ìÌõ ­ÄìÌ

>

> §Å¾¡ó¾õ, «ò¾¨¸Â ¾¢Â¡¿ Å¡ú쨸¨Â «¨¼Âì ÜÊ ­Ä쨸 ¿¡ÁȢ󾾡¸ ¬ì¸ ÓÂø¸¢ÈÐ.

>

> The self comes to existence as the embodied and acquires a psychological

nature in accordance with the body it is given to inhabit as it begins to live

with the identification of self with the body. ( One lives in accordance with

the likes and dislikes that comes along with the body). The self lives in this

falsity unable to avoid it and be free of it and enjoys all the fruits of it

actions. The whole of Vedanta seeks to free man from being bound to such

outcomes of bodily embodiment. In order to bring about the destruction of such

bondage the Vedanta Sastras teach the following :

>

> 1. The essence of self is transcendent to the physical body

>

> 2. The atributes of self

>

> 3. The essence of self as the expression of Paramatma who regulates both the

physical and spiritual from within as the immanent reality

>

> 4. The attributes of Paramatma

>

> 5. The Bakti of total self surrender and Dhyana of Paramatma

>

> 6. The end result of such dhyana practices

>

> Vedanta exts try to alert us with respect to what lies ahead in such a life of

Dhyana

>

> Some Questions ( Loga)

>

> 1.) There are two issues here. One is with respect the exegetic studies of

Vedanta texts, by which I guess the Upanishads are meant. Here itself a

problem arises for there are about 108 Upanishads and it is not clear which set

of Upanishads are being talked about here. For the later Upanishads are clearly

Saivite VaishNavite Sakta Yoga and so forth and which clearly show the

emergence of Dravidian metaphysics into Sanskrit in the form of these

Upanishads. Let us take the Vedanta Texts to be the 11 early Upanishads, those

that are taken by Sankara and other Acaryas and commented upon.

>

> That the inquiry in all these Upanishads is on the essence of self , I think,

quite acceptable as far I know. The same also goes for the essence of Paramatma

also called Brahman etc.

>

> While granting all these I am not sure whether Bakti as total self surrender

to BEING is something these Vedanta texts mention or elaborate. Bakti as

saraNaakati, as self surrender belongs essentially Tamil developments in

spirituality and this is something developed during 6th cent. A.D. against the

desiccation of genuine spirituality introduced by the positivistic Buddhists who

developed LOGIC at the expense of deep understanding of genuine metaphysics.

>

> Bakti arose along with Hymnology where the divine melodies combined LOVE with

spirituality and through that MELTED the heart and through that spiritualized

self. This was ABSENT during the Upanisadic period and very clearly Ramanuja, in

enthusiasm perhaps, is READING into the Vedanta Texts what he has learned from

the Tamil Bakti poetry. This is an error in Vedanta exegetic -- reading into

them what is not there in fact.

>

> 2) The second concerns the IMPLICATION in saying that the Vedanta Sastra teach

the above and through that makes possible the destruction of worldly bondage.

>

> The question is : can't a person WITHOUT studying these Vedanta texts FREE

himself from the Worldly ties? What is much more important than the study of

sastra is the study of self in its existential involvement . It is such an

understanding of self that would free itself from the worldly and gain entry

into the divine that is always there. Yes , man begins with the physical and

when he studies and learns about the physical world including his own

physicalistic nature , then at a certain point in his development, he begins to

recognize his self as distinct from the physical body. As I have said elsewhere

this begins when he begins to SEE hermeneutically , sees himself as a text the

deep structure of which is the self . Then when the self itself is

> taken as a TEXT in turn and studied then it would dawn that BEING stands as

the deep structure there and so forth.

>

> So what is important is EXISTENTIAL studies and not so much the sastras. These

sastras may in fact be an impediment to genuine and free inquiry into self.

>

> As they say in Tamil: eedduc curakkay kaRikuu utavaatu: the pumpkin in the

books will not allow itself to be cooked into a meal.

 

Dr. K. Loganathan

> meykandar

> Cc: akandabaratam ;

> agamicpsychology ;

> tamil ;

> tamil_araichchi_vaddam

> Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:14

> PM

> Re: [meykandar] Re: [tamil]

> Re: [akandabaratam] Re: [tamil] Re:

> The Dynamic of PersonalIdentity ( part

> 4)

> Dear S.T

>

> Let me add to this list the marvelous

> Irupaa Irupatu by AruNandi. You must

> see how brilliantly he queries

> Meykandar, his Guru . It was such a

> challenge and also a pleasure to

> translate and write a commentary on

> it.and which is avaibale in World

> Saivism Campus. Despite its brilliance

> it will be a financial disaster if

> some publishers venture to publish it.

> Even my epoch making of Sumero-Tamil

> books like Sirbiyam and so forth will

> not be appreciated by the Tamil

> scholars now.

>

>

> Hinduism provides for questioning and

> it is our fault not to use it to the

> maximum. The Advaitins are lost in

> Deep Sleep and will not stand any

> questioning of Sankara. The

> VaishNavites are very busy eulogizing

> Ramanuja and showering namaskars .

>

> I do admire these great figures but

> respect them by questioning seriously

> what they say. To be taken as worthy

> of deep questioning is the greatest

> tribute we can pay and I follow here

> AruNandi certainly one of the greatest

> philosophers of India.

> .

>

> You have raised a very valid questions

> to our educationists and which apply

> to Asians as a whole. I hope they will

> try to give some explanations.

>

> Loga

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sri rAmAnujasya caraNau SaraNam prapadyE.

 

/namastE Shri JaiSimman.

 

May I get the discussion started briefly?

 

The earlier scholars were dvi/bhAshis: That is they spoke two languages:

/sams/kRth and /tamiZ. The expression ubhaya/vEdAntam is a particular

application of the dvi/bhAshi concept.

 

Dr. Loganathan confesses that he does not know sams/kRth. He writes extensively

yet. One can see from the postings on /vishNu sahasra/nAmA by Shri

/kRuSnam/AcAri that even when one knows /samskRut, the task is not easy even

though enjoyable.

 

So I would like to pose two questions to Dr. Loganathan.

 

1. What is the /tamiZ word for /bhakti?

 

The word /pakti is not a proper /tamiz word. Poets like /tAyumAvar have not used

it. The same is true of /aruna/giri/nAtar.

 

/aruNa/giri uses /patti.

 

/tAyumAnavar uses /paRRu and /patti.

 

It took me a long time to see that /paRRu which is a daily word in /tamiZ is

indeed derived from /bhakti of /samskRut. It means to hold in such a way that

you do not let it go!

 

I was stunned when I first looked into the real implication the word. Take the

following example:

 

/nI etaip paRRi eZutap pORE? In ordinary language it simply means: What are you

going to write about?

 

But its true original meaning: What is it that you are going to hold in your

mind [before writing] so that you won't let it go (continue to think: that is,

to plan) and then write!

 

That is writing is a process where some prior thinking has to exist and you hold

on tightly to the subject matter and then write or speak about it. That is, it

is /bkakti in action in real life. Without such examples, we cannot understand

what /bhakti is.

 

Look at /paRRu which means attachment. It refuses to go. It attaches itself to

me like a /uTumbu! That is attachment has /bkakti to me. It holds on to me and

refuses to let me go. This is again /bhakti in action. I must learn from this

/pARRu. Its dedication to me is awesome!

 

The above two exampes give models of what /bhakti is. /tAyumANavar is a master

in this application. How does /bhakti work. Look all around you or read

/tAyumAnavar!

 

I do not know of any other word for /bhakti in /tamiZ. I request Dr. Loganathan

to give the exegesis of the word /bhakti in /tamiZ.

 

Secondly, there are two expressions that are related. /caraNa/gati and

/SaraNa/gati. In the first the destination is the feet. In the second the model

is an arrow (Saram). In /tamiZ both are writen the same way. But dvi/bhAshis

will know the context. Also in particular applications, there is not much

differnce in final summary.

 

/rAmAnujA uses the expression /SaraNa/gati. It has larger meaning than

/caraNa/gati. A model is always superior to an output. In /caraNa/gati, the

output is leaving our heart at the feet of the Lord as /paRRU does. Let the feet

of the Lord be our /paRRU/ AvaRRaip paRrikkoL. viTAtE. viTAkkanTAnE. That is,

hold on to them as an attachment (:-)) and don't let them go. This is

self-surrender, of course.

 

But /SaraNA/gati as used by /rAMAnujA and others means much more. I have to make

a living. I am tempted to say: "I cannot go and sit at the Lord's feet as

an/AZvAr can do." But, even /AzvArs cannot do it in real life and be a true

/vaishNavA. What they did is /SaraNa/gati.

 

What is an arrow? The word "pARRU" as attachment taught as something. The tamiZ

expresson, "pARRu teyttuk koTU" which we say to our chldren or a servant is an

example. We want them to clean the cooking vessel, because the dirt of sticky

rice refuses to leave. It is an attachment to the vessel (/pAttiram). So we ask

please get rid of this attachment by scrubbing. The literature often gives this

as an example of /bhakti. Just rinsing will not remove it. Our children in

America throw the vessel in a dish washer and expect it to be cleansed. They do

not understand /bhakti of the dirt to the vessel! The two are inseparable

without extra force.

 

Saram serves as a model, not when it is sleeping in the /ampu/urait/tuNi. That

is, when the arrow is stored in the backpack that a warrior carries. Its use is

when it is embedded in somebody or something. Its eventual aim is to split the

other person or thing. But before we make it embed in the target, we need to

take an aim.

 

There is a beautiful story about /arjuNa in a shooting competition. /AcArya

drONA asks each one of his disciples to shoot a single arrow at a small fruit

which he has posted on top of the head of a parrot. He has placed the parrot

perched on top of a tree. The target fruit has to be shot down by a single

arrow.

 

One by one they all try. Each time /DrONa asks the person as to what he was

looking at. Each one responds by saying one or oher of the following: he is

looking at the head, at the parrot, at the tree etc. None gets the target.

Finally /arjuNa's turn comes. /dRoNa asks him what he was looking at. He

respons: "I am seeing the fruit on top of the head". /dRoNa: "What else do you

see?I see only the fruit". He asks him a third question to redirect him.

/arjuNa is single-minded, and does not budge. drOna asks him to release the

arrow. Down falls the fruit.

 

This is an example of /SaraNa/gati. The act of getting the target is not as

important as the principle embedded in arjuNa's answers. /drONa knew that he

would get it. Others placed the cart before the horse. They are in a hurry to

get there.

 

/SaraNagati is the principle of keeping your target in your eyes, ears, nose, .

.. . , mind as the case may be. Our actions are directed by this

single-mindedness of purpose. In the case of /rAmANujA, the target is /praPatti,

which is effectively positioning one in relation to /mahA/viShNu in his case.

How one positions himself or herself is an evolutionary process. But it can be

modeled by the concept of /SaraNa/gati. If God Blesses one to be the dirt of the

cooking vessel, all the better. After all, even the dirt is the residue of a

food that nourished others. Without that dirt, there could be no food. But the

dirt is not our gati. It is unavoidable in the process. But even there it

teaches us a lesson so that in literature /paRRut tEyttal has gained an

immortality.

 

Thirdly, the gIta is part of the /upaNishats. And its only theme is

self-surrender as /SharaNagati. Whatever you do, know that your aim is that

fruit. Your acts (karmaYoga), are they seeing the fruit on the top? If yes, go

ahead; otherwise, "please step out", says, /dRONa.

 

Finally, the /shvEt/Ashva/tarO upa/Nishat explicitly uses /saraNa/gati in this

way in a wide context which is breath-taking:

 

/adhyAy 6: Verse 18:

 

/tam ha dEvam Atma/buddi/prakASam mumuzuvaihi SaraNam aham prapadyE.

 

Primary traditional translation:

 

I surrender seeking that Lord for self-illumination and eventual liberation.

 

Secondary translation:

 

I position myself in relation to such a Lord taking aim with my eyes set on

liberation and self-illumination.

 

This verse is preceded by the nature of that Lord in seven remarkable verses.

 

 

 

/vandanam.

 

 

/naha svIkurvaka asmAt krupAm: May he cause us to be endowed with His Grace.

 

[ I am not sure if the etymology of paRRutal is traceable to bhakti.

I don't think it is certain that it is derived from Sanskrit at all.

Some in fact argue that the word bhakti is derived from proto-Dravidian.

-- Moderator ]