Are there any Svargam and Naragam?

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SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA

 

 

Treatment of a Jeevathma after his

encounters in Sorkam and Naragam

 

Dear Bhagavatas,

 

Adieyen has a basic doubt in the treatment of

Jeevathma after his encounters in

Sorgam and Naragam. As per my understanding, a

jeevathma goes to Sorgam and

enjoys the comforts there in direct proportion to the

"Punniyams" in his

credit. Similarly he suffers in Naragam which is also

in direct proportion to

the "Pavams" in his credit. Once this treatment is

over, he has a zero balance

of "punniams" and "pavams" and he becomes eligible for

moksham, if he realises

and practices the "Artha Panchakam". But my doubt is

where comes the re-birth

of jeevathama again in this "leela vibudhi" as he now

has a zero balance of

"Punniyams" and "Pavams" (They have been spent or

compensated in Sorgam or

Naragam

 

Adiyen,

 

Varadarajan Ramanuja Dasan.

--\

-----------------------------

DEAR SRI VARADARAJAN,

I am also 'haunted' by this question and let me share

what I know about this. But before that here is Sri

Srikrishna Thathachar firing a salvo. Let's see..

 

 

In response to Sriman Varadarajan's question on

svargam and narakam,

my understanding is, this question does not araise for

prapannAs.

There is no svargam (heven), no narakam (hell), no

punarjanmam (rebirth)

and only mOxam(liberation).

 

... the elaborations, by whomsoever

it may be, are only (secondary)details; some of those

may serve some useful

purpose, in guiding us to the source. They are only

vehicles at best.

 

However, most other elaborations are unnecessary and

only shows the

incredible ability of human mind to complicate things.

-------------

DEAR SRI SRIKRISHNA THATHACHAR,

I AM GOING TO DO JUST THAT

.. COMPLICATE THINGS FURTHER :-))

---------------

In one way or the other we all have that lawyer in us,

sometimes more evident

so than the Lord within us!

-----------------

DEAR SRI SRI..

NOT THE LAWYER

BUT THE CHILD IN US

WITH ALL THE CURIOSITY, EAGERNESS AND IMPATIENCE TO

TALK..GIVEN THE SLIGHTEST OPPORTUNITY..

that is why i am here... to speak about this

complicated topic,

drawing courage from none other than my MENTOR,

'INBUTTRA SEELATHU ERAMANUSAN'

 

Invoking his dedicatory opening verse in his sri

bhashya to Vedanta Sutras,

 

"May my understanding assume the form of loving

devotion to that Highest Brahman who is the Home of

Lakshmi, and to whom the creation, preservation,

destruction &c.,of all the worlds is (mere) play,

whose main resolve consists in the protection of hosts

of multiform subordinate beings, and who is specially

seen to shine forth in what constitutes the head of

the Vedas"

 

The question raised by Sri Varadarajan can be dealt at

two levels.

-> by finding out what happens to the soul (jiva)

after leaving the body, ie., whether it goes to any

places like svargam or naragam

-> by finding out whether places called svargam and

naragam do exist.

 

To answer the first:-

The consolidated version from different scriptures of

yore has that there are 3 ways of passage for the

beings after death.

1. Those who have done prapatti or Bhakti, go either

through the path of the Sun or the Moon,

or during the day or night

or during the Northern or the southern course of the

sun (the Uththarayana and Dhakshinayana)

and reach the Brahman (brahma sutras chapter 4)

They attain paramapada and there is no return for

them.

 

2. The men of good conduct attain the world of gods

and become Somaraja (king Soma)and on exhaustion of

meritorious deeds are reborn with 'residual' karma.

 

3. The evil-doers after having undergone the results

of their evil works in the abode of Yama (Brahma

Sutras)are again reborn through the same course

(lunar)

 

(I requset the readers who have access to the book,

Brahma Sutras, Sri Bhashya by Swami Vireswarananda and

swami Adidevanada to go through the verse 3.1.7 and

the explanation again and again. I think there is a

hidden clue in this verse which I want to elaborate in

the forth coming paragraphs)

 

It is said that the one who has done good deeds like

digging ponds for the benefit of people, performing

yagas or giving gifts to the deserving, goes through

the path of smoke and reaches the moon and becomes

Soma raja (king Soma)

It is also said that which goes by the path of smoke

etc becomes the 'food' of gods (Chandogya)in this

plane.

 

But the soul is not a material edible thing. Does it

make any sense to say that the soul which goes to this

plane will be eaten by the gods there and

simultaneously the soul is bound to enjoy the fruits

of its good karma?

Then what is that the text actually wants to say?

The explanation goes that the word 'food' is not used

in the primary sense but metaphorically, meaning

objects of enjoyment and the soul in turn enjoys their

(the soma gods') company!

The next sutra goes to say that after being like this

and after exhaustion of (good) work, (the soul) with

the residual karma descends to the earth.

 

These and other verses that follow raise these doubts:

 

# How can there be any residual karma if the soul is

said to have enjoyed it in the soma land? Does it

mean that whatever karma that is residual now must be

the bad karma?

 

# Now that the residual karma is only the bad karma,

why doesn't the soul go to the land of Yama and the

seven hells as happens for those with bad karma?

why does it descend to the earth straightaway?

 

(Readers kindly note there is no reference to movement

of souls from soma land to yama land or vive versa in

core scriptures like BS. All descriptions about svarg

and narag are found in later-born purans and stories.

Any evidence to the contrary from the readers is most

welcome)

 

# The evil-doers after undergoing the fruits of their

evil deeds are said to descend the earth and are born

as the lowly beings, namely trees, animals etc.

But according to BS verse 3.1.8, the good ones who

have enjoyed the company of the gods of Soma come back

to earth with the good residual karma and are born in

good families, good places etc. How come they are now

left with good residual karma, since they must have

exhausted them all in the company of soma gods?

 

# If it is to said that they have some balance of good

karma to enable them to be born in good wombs, what is

the yard stick to decide how much to be spent in the

soma land and how much to be brought to the earth as

residual karma?

 

# The same types of questions arise in the case of

evil-doers holed up in yama land.

 

All these only go to show that there is something

wrong somewhere in our understanding of the whole

issue of souls reaching these levels and the so-called

enjoyment of fruits of their bad and good karma after

death.

Taking cue from the hidden clue in the verse 3.1.7,

shall we say that all that happens in the so-called

soma world is that those souls reaching there (the

transitory abode before preparing itself for the next

birth)are fortunate enough to be in the company of

other enlightened souls. Like how our guys and girls

always want to make it to the IITs or AIIMS in India!

 

Another way of looking at this is the repeated

injunction from core scriptures that the souls are

born again and again in this world to shed their

karma. Then how can they be said to reap the results

of the karma incurred in the earthly plane, at some

other plane where they do not even exist in the

physical form (made up of pancha bhoothas)?

 

Another reasoning to support the above view is that

the earth is said to be the Karma bhoomi

(MahaBharatha). It is only in this plane that karma

phalam can take place consummerate to the karma

committed.The other worlds talked by our scriptures

are (apart from Bhoo logam)Bhuvar, suvar, Maho, jano,

Tapo and satya logam. Beyond these there is Vaikundam.

 

One is at will to ask why can't the Bhuvar logam be

the same as the Soma land or even svarga as most of us

have been treated with stories of svarg-narag etc.

 

The implications behind what actually is this Bhuvar

or even Suvar logam are both philosophical and

metaphysical or even might be to do with the levels of

ascendence of the soul that scriptures like Taiitriya,

Chandogaya and Brihadaranyaka speak about.

 

The Taiittriya (let me take up this as i am somewhat-

though very little- familiar with this

Upanishad)speaks extensively about Bhoo, Bhuvar and

Suvar levels. There are as many as 5 levels of

explanations for these,(or for any philosophical

matter that we find in scriptures. It all depends on

our experience and our understanding to grasp the

intricacies hidden in them.)

 

For our discussion here, suffice it to concentrate on

the following.

Bhoo stands for Agni,

Bhuvar stands for Vayu and

Suvar stands for Adhitya tattwam.

A correlation to this Taiitriya vachan is found in BS

too in 4.3.1 and 4.3.2

The soul on departing from the body begins its journey

from the light, (interpreted in the BS as agni)

proceeds through vayu (Bhuvar?) and the reaches the

Sun (Suvar) The subsequent verses in BS speak about

the 'guide' souls who conduct the soils to their

destinations.

 

Nowhere do these passages indicte the existence of

svarg and narag.A combined reading of the BS verse

here and earlier on Soma land only indicates that the

departed soul is not alone in its onward journey.

There is someone to accompany it or guide it.

If the Vayu level of Bhuvar is considered to be the

transitory palne (because the soul is now prana devoid

of a body), we have the liberty to assume that it is

here it is spending its time with soma or yama in

accordance with the kind of company it deserves.

Beyond this the Sun (Suvar) comes, reaching which the

soul marches towards paramapadam, because scriptures

speak in unmistakable terms that those fortunate ones

who reach the sun never come back!!

 

Are there any other proofs to say that svarg or narag

as we imagine do not exist, nor are our karmas spent

at thses places?

 

Difficult to say because even Nachiketas was

prohibited from knowing the answer for this.

But certain real-life occurences support the views

mentioned above.

One is the occasional cases we hear of (it must have

happened in many of our families) persons just hours

before dying,reportedly getting to see the pitrus or

beloved ones who have left long ago. (Guides or like

minded ones of the Soma land?)

 

The other is about the numerous well documented cases

of the clinically dead who have come back to life to

tell what had happened in the near-death conditions.

Their narratioins almost tally with the scenario

explained above (about guides in accordance with their

belief, say a christian getting to see angels to guide

etc and going towards a light and so on)

 

For further information in connection with the above

views, I suggest a reading of R.K.Narayan's novel 'The

English teacher'( a reflection of his real life

experience after his wife died) and the books by the

Buddhist monk, Lobsang Rampa, particularly, the book

titled Twilight which also contains more of

Visishtadwata views!!

 

I request the devotees to have little more patience in

reading this post because, I also want to say what Sri

Ramanuja says in Vedanta sutras about svarg.

>From the above discussion, we can infer that there are

actually no such places called svarg or narag and the

kind of good and bad attached to them. As I have come

across some discussion on svarg (not narag)by Sri

Ramanuja in Vedanta sutras, I think this post may not

be complete without highlighting what Ramanuja says in

his commentary on VS.

 

In his Sri Bhashya to Vedanta Sutras, Ramanuja talks

about Svargam in as many as 8 places.In all these

places he treats the subject in the light of the Vedic

injunction that, "he who desires to attain Svarga,

shall perform Jyothishtoma sacrifice" and elsewhere he

says that svarga is the world in which there is "no

heat, no cold and no disagreeable-ness". (the relevant

scriptures that speak about this sacrifice are Purva

mimasaka and Taiittriya samhita)

 

Prasna upanishad speaks of 16 kalas as those

attainable by a man and this list ends with fruits of

svarga.

 

The high point of the discussion on this in SriBhashya

to VS is Ramanuja's commentary in Adhikarana I

sutra-1, 'Mimamsaka refuted'

He finds the Vedic injunction 'JYOTHISHTOMENA

SVARGAKAMA YAJETA" neither daily obligatory, nor

occasionally obligatory. Because unlike the results of

the knowledge of the Brahman, which are infinite and

unenduring, the results of "these works (svarga kama

sacrifice)" .."are temporal, bear fruit as soon as

they are performed, in the form of plenty of food,

healthiness and such other things which are enjoyed

then (and there)and consequently there is no knowledge

of the experience of that pleasure which in contra-

distinction to them has no nature of (the working) of

a commandment."

 

Now placing together all the information we have seen

above, some clarity seems to emerge (doesn't it?)

 

-> Svarga as spoken in / meant by scriptures is

different from what we, the small mortals understand,

as posed by Sri Varadarajan.

 

-> Svarga is a state of enjoyment which as Ramanuja

says, seems to be very much in the wordly plane (The

results of Jyothishtomena yagya)

 

-> The abode to which the departed souls ascend may

either be 'peopled' with souls of good nature and

souls of bad nature. This is decided by the conduct of

the soul while on the earth. This might be what is

meant by enjoying the fruits of good or bad actions in

svarg and narag.

 

-> Going by Sri Ramanuja's description of svarg as a

place where there is no dis-agreeable-ness, I get

reminded of the many references picked up in Rampa's

descriptions and after-death stories.There seems to be

perfect harmony and serenity in the other side. This

can either be called Pitru loka (BS speaks about this)

or the much higher lokas of kinnara, yaksha etc. Even

the Indra loka can be interpreted to mean the plane

that one attains if he/ she has controlled indriyas in

their life on earth. Because Indran means the one who

has conquered the Indriyas.

Taittriya upanishad minces no words in telling that

one attains a particular level based on what one

pursues (upasana). You believe there is svarg,(for the

sake of arguement, for nowhere in Tai Upa I came came

across a reference to svarg) with all its attendent

happy things, you will come have happy things of

svarg, so says tha Tai Upa. What you think, so you

become. Probably that is why, later puranas and

stories promoted notions about svarg and narag as

means to promote good conduct in people.

 

-> Enjoyment by indriyas is possible only in the human

form, and only on the Bhoo lokam.

 

-> The supreme place that is humanly possible is the

paramapadam which the mukhtas attain.

 

The next lower possible level is to reach the status

of devas which include pitrus, siddhas, gandharvas,

kinnaras, vasus and yakshas. This depends on the

differnt levels of knowledge attained by the jivas.

Once the time period to be in these levels gets over,

and if the jiva continues to possess residual karma to

be shed, rebirth takes place.

 

The inferior categories are stated as those of animals

and plants.

 

It seems it is not only by our actions, but also by

our attitude we choose where we have to be after

death.

The real experience of happiness and suffering, if

they are to be synonymous with svarg and narag can

take place on the earth only where such experiences

can be felt through the indriyas and not in formless

states!

 

Quote 1.

THE MIND IN ITS PLACE AND IN ITSELF CAN MAKE A HEAVEN

OF HELL AND A HELL OF HEAVEN-- Milton

Quote 2.

IF THERE IS NO HELL, HOW CAN THERE BE ANY RELIGION?

-- Anonymous.

Quote 3.

VEDANTA RECOGNISES NO SINS, IT ONLY RECOGNISES ERRORS

AND THE GREATEST ERROR, SAYS THE VEDANTA, IS TO SAY

THAT YOU ARE WEAK, THAT YOU ARE A SINNER, A MISERABLE

CREATURE AND THAT YOU HAVE NO POWER AND YOU CAN NOT DO

THIS OR THAT -----Swami Vivekanada.

 

EdumE eniya swargaththil, ennam naragil ettu

ChudumE avattrai taru thollai suzhal pirappil

nadumE eni nam Ramanujan nammai nam vasaThE

vidumE sharanam.... (Ramanuja Noottrandhadhi)

 

jayasree sarnathan.

 

[ svarga and naraka do indeed exist, according to all Vedantins

including Ramanuja. Please see Brahma Sutra 3.1.15: "Moreover

there are seven (hells)." /api ca saptaH/. The numbering of

the sutra may differ from commentator to commentator.

-- Moderator ]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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At 10:11 AM 7/2/02 -0700, you wrote:

 

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA

 

Dear BhakthAs:

 

Srimathi Jayashree Saranathan's (JS)response to SrIman

VaradarAjan and SrIkrishna TatachAr is brilliant

and balanced. The discussion is kacchitham and the insights

given by SrImathi JS (Brahma SoothrAs 3.1.7 to 3.1.27)

are the most appropriate ones about the "waking state of

the soul , its transmigration to different spheres and

return to this world and its consequent sufferings in

the state of bondage (as Bhaddha Jeevan) ".

 

For the benfit of the readers of sister lists ,

I will copy the original note of SrImathi JS for

reference .I am sure that she would not mind

the sharing of the valuable information housed in her

note. This subject is surely of wide interest .

 

After discussing the soul's imperfections ,

the Brahma soothrAs focus on the ananatha kalyANa

GuNams of the Lord free from all imperfections

as Supreme Brahman and discuss ways to meditate

on Him.The Brahma SoothrAs establish that Brahaman is

the grantor of the fruits of all actions ( Phalamatha

upapatthE: BS-3.2.37).After discussion on meditation

in the third chapter, the final chapter of the SoothrAs

focuses on the fruits of Meditation : Brahman ,

the UpEyam . The final & Fourth chapter deals with the ways

in which the soul leaves the body and the last two sections

of this chapter (4.3 and 4.4) describe the travel of

the liberated soul by the archirAdhi maargam , honors

recieved from aadhivAhikAs and the Muktha jeevan manifesting

itself in its true nature enjoying ParipoorNa BrahmAnanadham

at the Supreme abode and never returning to the Karma BhUmi .

Swamy NammAzhwAr (Vedam Tamizh seytha MaaRan) has

housed the descriptions on the ascent of the soul via

archirAdhi maargam and arrival at Sri Vaikuntam in

the last two decads of ThiruvAimozhi.

 

The subject matter of this thread is vast and will need

the insight from the discourses by our revered AchAryAs ,

who have spent their life time understanding these difficult

concepts backed up by PramANAs from Sruthi , Smruthi

and upabrhmaNams.To facilitate additional discussions ,

I will content myself with a brief discussion on two points

mentioned by SrImathi JS:

 

FIRST POINT: SVARGAM AND VEDIC REFERENCES:

******************************************

(1)Svargam and Vedams: Upanishadic and Brahma Soothra

references of Sage VyAsa have been touched upon already

by her (Smt JS) and SrI Mani VaradarAjan. Let me cite

a few Vedic references about Svarga Lokam that precede

the Upanishads .The place of Svargam in the hierarchy of

worlds and the experience there are described by

these manthrAs.

 

A. Yajur vedam XVII.67 (pruTivyAa--svarjYothiragAmaham):

Vedam refers to Svar LOkam as the World of "Supra-Sun ".

Svargam and Soorya derive their meanings from the same root.

This is a world , a realm ,whhich is beyond the familiar

rhOdasI ( Heaven and earth ). This is beyond PruthvI ,

anthariksham ( the interspace over which our atmposphere

extends) and the celestail space ( dyauh )beyond anthariksham ;

this vast space is constituted by galaxies and stars

including Dhruva maNdalam .The Svar Lokam attained due to

the accumulated Punya KarmAs by the jeevans is beyond

this Dyauh lOkam . Svar lOkam is a world , a realm with

Indran as the presiding deity (Svarpathi)of this supraheavenly

realm. AzhwArs consider PuNyam and Paapam as the Golden

and Iron handcuffs and do not wish to be associated

with them and seek Mukthi , a state , where one is

free from both kinds of karmAs. Svar lOkam is also

referred to as " Uru lOkam " :

 

URUM nO lOkamnu nEshi vidvAn SVARVAJ jyOtir abhayam svasthi

rishvA ta INDRA sthavirasya bAhu upa sTEyAma saraNA bruhantha

 

--Rg Vedam : VI.47.8

 

Meaning: Thou with Your knowledge blesses us on to

the wide word, even Svar , the light , which is

freedom from fear , with happy state of existence .

 

Other selected passages relating to Svargam in

the ancient Rg Vedam are housed in the following

manthrams :

 

RV.VI.72.1 , RV.IV.16.4, RV. VII.99/3, VII.99.4

 

gnanthO Vrutraataran rhOdasI apa URUKSHAYAAYA-chakrirE

bhUvath kaNvE vrushAdhyumanyAhutha: krandadasvO gavishtushu

 

--RV: I.36.8

 

Meaning: Jeevans slaying the coverer (Vrutran )

have now travelled beyond both earth and heaven

and made the wide , bright world, Svargam, their

(temporary) world of residence.

 

There are many other passages referring to Svargam

as a world of radiance and enjoyment . After their

puNyAs , which got them there in the first place,

get exhausted the jeevans return with their residual

karmAs back to earth. The Prapanna Jeevan however

does not get here(Svarga) , but takes the DevayAna route

to SrI Vaikuntam and never returns to the karma BhUmi

(anAvrutthi sabdhAth, anAvrutthi sabdhAth)).

>All descriptions about svarg and narag are found in

>later-born purans and stories. Any evidence to the contrary

>from the readers is most welcome)---(SrImathi JS)

 

SECOND POINT: PURAANAMS AND SVARGAM:

************************************

2) Among all purANams , VishNu PurANam composed by

Sage Paraasara hs been celebrated as PurANa Rathnam

by Sawmy AlavanthAr. It is more ancient than all

other PurANams since it is authored by none other than

the Father of Sage VyAsa and the grandson of Sage Vasishta .

The passages from this PurANam has been taken up as

PramANam by AchArya RaamAnujA in His Sri BhAshyam .

This PurANam is not a "later-born purAnam " and

indeed can be considered as first-born purAnam

originating from a period coeval to some of

the Upanishads . This PurANam has six chapters (amsams)

and many sections (adhyAyams) in each of the chapters.

Brilliant insights are given about the naraka lOkams ,

the tratemnts there proportionate to the accumulated

paapams and PrAyasccitthams and the migration of the soul

after narakam . The third amsam ,seventh adhyAyam deals

at length with ViashNava prabhAvam (who is a Vaishnavan ?

What are his glories ? how does Yanma dharma raajan treats

them etc., These two sections from VishNu PurANam of

Swamy Parasara Bhagavaan are very pertinent to

the ongoing discussions .

 

A Study of VishNu PurAnam and its commentary (VishNu

ChitthIyam ) by EngaLAzhwAn , the disciple of AchArya

RaamAnujA would be most valuable to understand these

concepts dear to VisitAdhvaithins. HH SrImath Azhagiya

Singar ( the Current PeetAdhipathi) has written a beautiful

commentary on SrI VishNu PurANam in 1996 .

 

SrImath Azhagiya Singar ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam ,

RaamAnuja Daasan Oppiliappan Koil VaradAchAri SadagOpan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>EdumE eniya swargaththil, ennam naragil ettu

>ChudumE avattrai taru thollai suzhal pirappil

>nadumE eni nam Ramanujan nammai nam vasaThE

>vidumE sharanam.... (Ramanuja Noottrandhadhi)

>

>jayasree sarnathan.

>

>[ svarga and naraka do indeed exist, according to all Vedantins

> including Ramanuja. Please see Brahma Sutra 3.1.15: "Moreover

> there are seven (hells)." /api ca saptaH/. The numbering of

> the sutra may differ from commentator to commentator.

> -- Moderator ]