More on Svargam and Naragam

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SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA

 

Dear Moderator,

 

your comments..

> svarga and naraka do indeed exist, according to all

>Vedantins

>including Ramanuja.

 

In this connection, I would like to make a

differentiation in the nature of heaven and hell as

mentioned in the texts and the nature of heaven and

hell that we the ordinary mortals (brimming with a

number of doubts about the feasibility of the

same)visualise!!

The lord gave me the courage to say this - as has

always happened, he shows me the way when I ask for

it,

I tumbled upon certain verses in BG which I think are

more relevant and self-explanatory.

 

They are the verses from Srimad Bhagavad Gita, chapter

9, slokas 20 and 21.

 

" Tri vidya maam somapaha puthapapa yagyairishtwa

svargathim prarthyanthe/

Te punyamaasaadhya surendraloka-mashnanthi

divyandavi deva bhogaanu// " (9-20)

 

" Te tam bhukthva svarga lokam vishalam

ksheene punye marthyalokam vishanthi/

Evam thrayee dharmam anupprapanna

gadaagadam kaamakaamaa labhante" (9-21)

 

In continuation of my previous post, let me say the

following.From the verse 9-20 &21, it comes doubly

clear that

-> svarga praapthi is possible for those who do the

homas as per the tri vidhya - the three vedas and who

drink soma(?). This probably explains why the one who

reaches that land is called the king of Soma (BS

explanation)

 

-> These jivas enyoy the results of the punya-

no confusion here because svarga stands for enjoyment

of punya.

 

-> But what is to be noted here is that the punya

that arises on account of the Vedic injunction (tri

vidhya) are not the same as those punyas that we

normally understand as to be arising from various

types of good deeds. Because they are the'Pootha

paapa' That is the paapam that are a hindrance to

attaining the svarga lokam have been removed by them.

 

If on the contrary we assume the implication of pootha

paapa as one who has removed / dissolved *ALL* the

paapa, the lord's next sloka CAN NOT stand vindicated.

That is the jiva will be ridden of all the punya (now

exhausted in svarga)and already he has removed the

paapam (has become a pootha paapa)so he will now have

zero balance!

If so he need not be born again. But the lord says in

the next sloka that he is born again!

 

That means the paapam that the soul has successfully

erased must be the ones that would have otherwise

disabled him to go to svargam. Just as how the punya

from tri vidhya is different, distinct and special,

the paapam by the removal of which he becomes a pootha

papa (I think this word is used as a vinaiyaalaNayum

pEyar)is also of distinct nature.

( I don't know whether I am right in making this

inference. I may stand to be corrected by learned

devotees)

>From the next sloka.

-> svarga lokam is vishaalam. meaning there are

different types of enjoyment at diiferent levels of

magnitude in accordance with the levels of punya.

 

-> The moment the punyam gets exhausted, the soul is

reborn to the marthya lokam. If we assume the nature

of the punya as 'just' the normal one arising from the

actions of mind, speech and body and not as discussed

just above, once again the question comes here as to

what punyam he will have now in his credit as he will

have only paapams and does this not make him a heena

janmam or qualify him to go to hell?

 

But the lord doesn't say so. He says that they are

reborn. According to BS, this soul is born in good

wombs and under good conditions. This means the punya

that accompanies him to the earth must be different

and is intact!

 

 

The punyam that accrues on account of doing the homas

as per the three vedic injunctions. (One example

already noted is the Jyothishtomena hoam)helps him to

reach svargam (kaamakaama -desirous of transient joy

-that is why Sri Ramanuja discounted the results of

this homa in "Mimasa refuted" in his bhashya to

Vedanta sutras. -refer my earlier post)

 

This must be independent of (and in addition to)the

other punya that arises in the normal course of

actions through mind, speech and body.Only then it

makes some meaning to say that the jiva after

exhausting the punya that helped him ascend the

svargam, comes back to undergoo the results of the

residual karma.

It can then be claimed that the need doesn't arise to

go to hell to work out the paapa because, it can be

assumed now, in line with svarga kama karma, that

unless the jiva has done the most henious kind of

paapam that requires him to undergo the ills of hell,

he need not go to hell!

 

I think Vedantas talk of going to svargam or narakam

in this context. Other wise I stand by what I wrote in

my previous mail,that

-the souls reach pitru loka in the normal course

-or be in the company of good souls on account of its

good conduct in the world

- the other side is a blend of harmonious existence of

peacefulness and agrreable-ness.

- it can be the contrary in the case of so-called

hell, for the evil ones (who were evil in tri-kaaran

in the earth) to be in the company of evil ones with

evil thoughts,

 

I once again stand by the notion

that the karma which arises from prakruthi sambhandam

must/ can be exhausted only in the plane that has

prakruthi sambhandam, i.e., on the earth -

 

that svarg and narag as such exists simultaneously

for every one according to the manner in which he has

to exhaust his praarabhda karma.

 

that (now included in this post)svarg or narag as

explained in the scriptures may not still hold good as

they will be practically empty now- with the possible

exception of narag.

 

It is my wish that I don't want people to be haunted

and daunted by fears of hell.

For we are seeing enough of it (hell) in our lives

and those of others. The fear is necessary to make

people behave properly. But in to day's world the

extent of suffering is so huge, so unbearable and so

mind-boggling, that each one learns a lesson from his

own suffering.

 

Every person who comes to show me his hand, expecting

me to say a good word about his future, makes me say

that the rules for kaliyuga are different. There is no

need to wait for completing this birth, to go to

hell or heaven. The results start taking shape then

and there, immediately. In my experience in reading

over a thousand palms, I can say that the injunction

for this yuga is, "Murpagal seiyin pirpagal vilayum"

The different kinds of sufferings that I come to know,

the confessions that the sufferers make, the

self-imposed responsibility that I have taken up to

say soothing words to balm the suffering hearts and to

even give false hope where there is none, make me beg

to God, "Enough is enough, let them not suffer more

even after death, in some extraneous abode of hell'

 

When, I, the ordinary mortal can be so moved by the

pains in other's life,

won't HE, the kaarunya seelan in HIS SUPREME

compassionate bhava pardon them, spare them of more of

hell.

HE WILL

HE HAS TO...

 

KOOVIKKOLLUM KAALAM ENNUM KURUGAADO.....

 

jayasree sarnathan

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear JS

 

Your posting on swarg & narag is excellent and I appreciate your high

analytical approach on punya & papa issues which are daunting our mind from

time incessant. Many thanks for your clarifications.

 

I have one doubt.

 

Why do elders bless the younger ones for 'Deerghayush' (i.e. 100/120 years).

Though we wish our progeny to live long, is it to shed our karma in this

birth itself by living as long as possible. The more you live the more

accumulation of punya/papam. Is n't it? Then why should we live that long

at all?

 

Sorry for this childish question.

 

Adiyen

 

Balaji K

[Guest guest]

--

 

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA

 

Dear devotees, Sri Balaji has raised a question (paradoxical in

implication) in this mail.

 

I request the devotees to share their opinions / replies to this

question.

>

> Why do elders bless the younger ones for 'Deerghayush' (i.e.

100/120 years).

> Though we wish our progeny to live long, is it to shed our karma

in this

> birth itself by living as long as possible. The more you live the

more

> accumulation of punya/papam. Is n't it? Then why should we live

that long

> at all?

>

> Expecting your views,

jayasree sarnathan

[Guest guest]

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

 

 

A note for whomever following these posts,

THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC WAS MAINLY

AROUND HOW OR WHY THERE CAN BE ¡¦RESIDUAL KARMA¡¦.

DOES NOT THE EXHAUSTION OF PUNYAM IN SVARGAM LEAD TO

A CONDITION OF '¡¦ZERO BALANCE¡¦ OF KARMAS?

These have been dealt with in earlier posts.

In the process it became irresistable to ask the

question whether a place called heaven or hell

exists at all.

It must also be said that

for a perfect yogin, (BG)

for a brahma-upaasakan, (Taii Upa-II ¡V9)

for a prapannan,

the ¡¥fear¡¦ or

possibility of reaching these places do not arise.

 

Now coming to Sri Lakshmi narasimhan¡¦s mail¡K

Dear Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan,

Glad to have received this mail from you.

 

You said,

> > My question is regarding the part "what punyam

> A soul(athman) goes to svargam only if she(I call

> the athman with

> feminine gender as I had studied from few learned

> people that only

> the paramathman is the purusha(the MALE) and all

> other ones are

> FEMALE (though differentiated only by bodies)) has

> punyams to her

> credit. I.E only if she doesn't have papas or the

> papas that she has

> in credit has been nullified by an equal amount of

> punyas and the

> excess punyas lead to svargam. So, when they are in

> svargam there

> excess punyams are also gone and they are given a

> re-birth in order

> to be given an oppurtunity to get to know about the

> lord. But whether

> the athman does punya or papa in the re-birth is a

> different story.

 

My response to this is

 

Nowhere it is said in the texts, according to my

limited knowledge,that paapam can be nullified by an

equal amount of punyam.

These two are treated separately only.

In the case of paapam, some pariharas and

praayasciththams are recommended. Parashara smirithi

which is said to be appllicable to this kaliyuga,

(Manusmrithi for Krutha yuga) tells a number of

pariharas and praayaschiththams to various kinds of

paapam. Certain henious crimes have also been

earmarked as 'gone' cases, where the dosham is said to

be twice the measure of Brahmahaththi dosham, for

which the person has to necessarily undergo the

recurcussions in its entirity. No escape.

 

(Kindly go through Sri Sadagopan¡¦s mail in response

to my first mail on this issue in which he has brought

out these views as being found in Vishnu Purana,

written by Sri Parashara. I don¡¦t know for sure

whether the Parashara smrithi I am refering here is

part of Vishnu Purana. The book I am referring to is a

translated version by Sri Desikachar, published by Sri

Aadhi shakara bhagavad pada veda sabha, 1979 edition.)

 

Why I say all this is that the results of paapam have

to be endured and the same holds good for punyams

also. According to BG 6 -41 & 42, even a

'yogabrahshtan' ( the one who has slipped from yogam)

after enjoying the logam of Punyaathmas (svarg?) is

born in a good family.

The paapa-punya balance seems to be a mixed bag for a

majority. Like rain after sunshine and vice versa.

No one is a perfect Punyaathma and no one is a perfect

paapaathma. In the case of paapams, the motives and

circumstances are also taken into consideartion.

Parashara smrithi vindicates this view, so also does

the the dialogue between Bheeshma and Yudhishtra,

after Bheeshma was hit in the war (Anushasana Parvam

13, Adhyaay 8, of Mahabharatha specifically addresses

the question of purva janma karma and the

interpretation of Dharma in that context).

 

Coming to the core issue that is troubling us,

the results of the punya karmam can be any of the

following depending on the nature of the punya karmam.

These, according to Taiittriya Upanishad, are

1.prajaya - good children

2. pashubhihi - riches like cattle, in todays context

material comforts.

3.brahmavarchas - brahma tejas

4. annam - good food

5. svargena - svargam

(Taii upa - I-3.4)

The upanishad's recommendation for the punya karma to

attain the above is the single minded upasana of

'mahasamhitha' of the 5-fold knowledge of and the

requisite action with reference to Adhi lokam, Adhi

Jyothisham, Adhi Vidhyam, Adhi Prajam and

Adhyaathmam.

 

The karma that are resposible for various kinds of

results mentioned above are different from each other.

For example, actions like digging well for the benefit

of people, performing yagas as per the three vedas etc

qualify the person to reach svargam, provided they are

capable of giving perfect punyams, not hindered by

that kind of paapam that will not qualify him to go to

svargam. That is why once after the enjoyment of the

punyam in svargam, the jiva comes back to earth with

the ¡¥residual karma¡¦

 

But talking about paapa karma, the texts seem to say

that those who have done paapa karma only and the

most henious ones at that are born as trees, animals

and birds.

The kinds of experiences that the jiva is said to

undergo in hell are all akin to what they experience

on this world. The diseases, the accidents, natural

calamities and man- made sufferings (who can forget

the sufferings of different magnitude that must have

come into fruition to different people on the day WTC

was brought down?) The description of these sufferings

tally with whatever you find in the explanation for

hell.

> Also, in mahabharatham, at the end of their era the

> pandavas go to

> heaven and before they go to heaven dharmaputra is

> shown a glimpse of

> what hell is just because he had attempted/helped to

> lie(aswatthama

> hatha kuncharaha). This is in Shri Vyasa's

> mahabharatha which means

> the swargam and naragam definitely exist outside the

> karma bhoomi.

> Isn't it? My point is not to scare anyone with the

> concept of hell

> and heaven, but if I can make them see the heaven

> and the hell in the

> right perspective that would be sufficient. Nobody

> gets scared when

> they are told they would be severely punished if

> they violate some

> law or say they will have life imprisonment in a

> jail. Well, few

> people get scared, but, the point is, most of them

> make it a point

> that they don't violate. That is all our religion is

> trying to tell

> isn't it? It doesn't try to scare them but tells

> them that if they do

> something wrong they deserve an equal punishment and

> they could

> escape this material world, but not in the spiritual

„« world.

 

I agree with you. I used to wonder that even the very

purpose of advent (or invention?) of religions is to

dictate some character and discipline in people¡¦s

lives.

But swearing on sv-precepts, we try to piece together

the views from different sources to get a better

perspective. (but land up in confused state as some

people have predicted!!)

„«

„« I don't

> know whether I am able to communicate what I want

> to, but let me try

> some example. If I do some mistake or say a typical

> crime I could

> always escape from being punished physically in this

> material world

> as all the typical laws have some loop-hole or

> other, while, I can

„« never escape from the hell is the point;-)

 

Exactly.

This is the level of understanding where I stand now.

But I differ on the point of experience of the

results of the crime in a separate abode called hell.

Why I say so?

I try to relate the real life experiences that I come

across in palm reading (related with astrology and

nadi- astrology which I have been doing, out of pure

academic interest and to help people by guiding,

directing and counselling them.)

>From this experience of more than two decades, I am

able to form certain notions based on repetition of

occurrence and verification

They are

# for every action- however small it may be- done at

the level of thought or action or speech, there is a

proportionate and appropriate result accruing in the

balance sheet. The crimes done in secrecy which may

never be made known to the outside world are all

being tackled in this hard and fast rule of cause and

effect. Recall the BG sloka that the lord procliams

himself as the Yama among those who control.(samya

madam) He never uses the word among those who punishe

etc. It is samya madam, because the results are

inescapable (of course not for the prapannan etc. but

where do we find one?) and are meted out with

precision.

 

# Only certain occurrences can be molified (as per

certain indications in the palm) by praayaschiththam

to minimise the effect of the result.

 

# The so-called worst crimes ( I don¡¦t want to go

into the details, for then I may be going against the

self-imposed Hippocratic oath of this guidance I am

doing) are MANIFESTETED as results IN THIS WORLD

ONLY. We are able to trace a particular suffering to a

particular crime and we get proof (through

confessions and nadi- astrology readings) for them in

many cases. In these cases the suffering must have

been less, had some propitation taken place in HELL.

But doesn¡¦t seem so- making me to conclude that no

shedding of paapas had occurred at the transitory

level..

Perhaps this level called 7 hells in BS might be to do

with the state of existence with jivas of similar

fate.(read my first mail on this topic)

 

# In the absence of repentence, pariharas do not

bear fruits.

 

# the core idea behind suffering seems to be

repentence, positive action to undo the kind of

results that would have accrued due to the crime ( a

chance is given to see how the affected party would

have felt and by seeing or feeling this, repentence

level is increased thereby reducing the prolongation

of agony )and pro-active positive action.

>These are

>just my views

> which I felt are different from yours. I am open for

„« corrections for

 

I too am open for correction

I may be wrong or right ¡V partly

But what is imporatnt is that we don¡¦t remain mute.

We ask, search for answers and this probably will

make us better people

Will make us improve our awareness about so many

things,

Particularly about pain and sufferings

And to sensitise ourselves to pain

And grow in compassion , empathy and ahimsa.

Perhaps it is for this we need to be treated with

images of

gories of hell and

the sweetness of heaven!!

 

Jayasree sarnathan

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Balaji,

Is it better to take few more birth cycles to burnt Karma.

 

Best Regards,

VR

 

> Dear JS

>

> Your posting on swarg & narag is excellent and I appreciate your

high

> analytical approach on punya & papa issues which are daunting our

mind from

> time incessant. Many thanks for your clarifications.

>

> I have one doubt.

>

> Why do elders bless the younger ones for 'Deerghayush' (i.e.

100/120 years).

> Though we wish our progeny to live long, is it to shed our karma

in this

> birth itself by living as long as possible. The more you live the

more

> accumulation of punya/papam. Is n't it? Then why should we live

that long

> at all?

>

> Sorry for this childish question.

>

> Adiyen

>

> Balaji K

[Guest guest]

Sri Mate RamAnujAya Namaha

 

Namaskaram Jayashree and other SVs

Comitting a sin or paapam,is the basic

instinct of a jivatman(he is an ordinary being), but

realising that what we committed was a sin and that it

will not be approved by BrAhmAn is the first step to

Paapa vinasham , of course , it also goes without

saying that we should not commit the sin again, just

realising is not enough

 

Something is called Right relative to something else

that is Wrong

All said and done , we cannot always be right, had

that been the case , every being on this earth would

bcom holy and attain "SRI PAADAM", and "HIS" Leelai of

"Creation and Destruction" would come to an end

 

We are just "Paathradhaaris" in HIS play, we have no

choice , but to act according to his wishes ,

And also , since we all agree that this Bhoomi and

Prakruthi are HIS Creations ,we should not detest this

cycle of "Births and deaths" so much .I personally

feel , HE is always there with me , though i cannot

see HIM, i know he is watching me, listening to all my

problems ,prompting me to do the right things always

 

 

This is purely my personal belief, if it has offended

the people who feel otherwise , i sincerely apologise

 

Sowmya

 

 

 

 

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