gyAtRtva, kaRtRva and bhOktRtva

[Guest guest]

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

 

Dear devotees,

 

Certain interesting questions are addressed by the two

mails attached below.

 

# Does the jiva enjoy / possess any freedom to act (

freewill)? Did the lord mean this when He said in BG

18-63 –“yathA echchasi thathA kuru’” –do as per your

wish?

 

# Does the ability to know, act and experience confer

any freewill to the jiva.? (Sri Ram kumar’s mail)

 

# If brahman resides in all things (both chetana and

achetana) and controls them , how can there be free

will?( BG –15-15)

(avanandri voraNuvum asaiyAthu)

 

# Sri Krishna Kashyap’s mail- God’s problem vs

individual’s problem –who is responsible for the

jiva’s sorry state of affairs?

If it is due to jiva acting on free will, what does

the lord imply in BG 16-19?

“aham.. aaseerushu yonishu ajasram kshibhaami (the

words have been interchanged in order to draw the

meaning)

 

# If everything proceeds as per the lord’s designs,

does it not amount to pre-determination? Then where is

the room for free will?

 

Dear devotees, therefore, may I request you to share

your views and your arguments drawing inputs from

texts on the question of

pre-determination versus freewill.

 

JS

 

>From Sri Krihna Kashyap:-

 

I like some questions since the same questions have

bothered me before. This

is one of them.

 

Yes jnatrtva, kartrtva and bhoktrtva is given to jiva

by God. In that sense,

jiva's jnantrtva,kartrtva, bhoktrtva are dependent on

God. If it is

dependent then one might ask why should jiva suffer

due to the stuff given

by God? It is not so: the freedom is given to jiva to

use the karana

kalebara : ie. body mind and intellect as per guidance

of shastras. One has

the freedom to get bound or get out of it. Once can

get into maya or get out

of it. if one goes against the shastras it it is not

God's problem but

individual's. more sins one does, he or she will get

into situations and

bodies which may have lesser sensitivity to commit

more mistakes.

 

>From Sri Ram Kumar,

 

I have a fundmental vedAntic question.

 

According to viSishTAdvaita, one of the key

ontological entities is

the individual consciouness (jIva) which is a distinct

& inseparable

attribute of the brahman (the Supreme Being).

 

So, in order to facilitate the jIva's distinctness &

freewill, is

the ability to know, (gyAtRtva), act (kaRtRtva) and

experience

(bhOktRtva) accorded to the individual jIva by the

brahman?

 

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

--- jasn sn <jayasartn wrote:

>

> Certain interesting questions are addressed by the two

> mails attached below.

 

Quite an interesting discussion. Whether there exists really free will or not

was one of the

frequently raised topics in the advaitin list serve as well. From advaita

perspective kartRitva,

bhoktRitva and j~naatRitva are bhaava-s or notions in the mind of jiivas due to

adhyaasa.

 

There are couple of more sloka-s from Geeta that also some bearing on the

topics.

 

1. nahi kaschit kshaNamani jaatu tushTasya karam kRit

kaaryate haviashhaH karma sarva prakRitaiH gunaiH||

 

Thus there is no one who can refrain from perfroming action even a second.

 

On the other hand,

 

2. prakR^iti eva cha karmaaNi kriyamaanaani sarvashhaH|

yaH pasyati tat aatmaanam akartaaram sa pasyati||

- notice sarvaani karamaani - all actions - are being done by prakRiti alone.

one who sees that

one self (aatmaanam) is a non-doer is the real sear (of the truth) - saH

pasyati.

 

2a Naiva kaschit karomi iti yuktaH manyeta tatva vit - the knower of the truth -

tatva vit - has

realized properly that I am not the doer of any actions' - giving a meaning that

he was never a

doer.

 

3. prakRiteH kriyamaaNaani guNaiH karmaaNi sarvashaH|

ahamkaara vimuuDaatmaa kartaaham iti manyate||

again sarvaaNi karmaani - all actions are due to prakRiti alone. only an

egotistical deluded

jiiva thinks I am the doer of the action -

Is action on the part of jiiva notional or actual?

 

In contrast to this-

 

4. yoginaH karma kurvanti sangham tyaktvaa aatma suddhaye| - the seekers perform

the actions

without detachment to purify themselves.

 

5. mayi sarvaaNi karmaaNi sanyaasyaadhyaatma chetasaa|

niraashiiH nirmamo bhuutvaa yudhyasva vigatajvaraH|

 

As a part of karma yoga Lard adviases to offer all actions to him and then with

mind free from

expectatons and delusions - do the fighting - yet actions is recommended from

arjuna.

 

One way to interpret all these apparent contradictions is - as long as jiiva has

the notions that

I am the doer - kartR^itva, bhoktRiva, jnaatRitva bhaava-s then the advice of

the Lord is for one

to perform with attitude of complete surrender to the Lord - offering everthing

including slowly

even the notions that he is the doer - since in the final analysis - slokas 2

and 3 reaffirm that

it is prakR^iti that does all the actions - Of course prakRiti being jadam

cannot do any acion -

being antaryaami it is the Lord that is the propeller in the sameway as - mayaa

adhyakshena

prakRitiH suuyate sa charaacharm- under my direction the prakRiti projects forth

all the movable

and immovables.

 

I do not know if Krishna Kasyap can get Shreman S.M.S. Chari maama to respond to

the questions

posed. I for one will be intersted to learn his views. Apparently he has

completed his work on

Bhagavat Geeta and will be given for publication.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.

[Guest guest]

Sri JS,

 

Please refer to Sri SMS Chary's book titled Fundamentals of VisistAdvaita

VedAntA for a detailed explanation regarding all the questions you have

raised. Here is my understanding, in brief!

 

# Does the jiva enjoy / possess any freedom to act (freewill)? Did the lord

mean this when He said in BG 18-63 yathA echchasi thathA kuru do as per

your wish?

 

Yes, the jIvA does possess the freedom to act. Towards the end of His

discourse/dialogue, Sri Krishna tells Arjuna to do what he (Arjuna) wishes

in accordance with the knowledge provided (by Him) and in keeping with his

qualification - referring to Arjuna's duty as a kshatriya/warrior. The Lord

offers His advice and leaves the decision-making to Arjuna. By this it is

clear that He expects the jIvA/an individual to take the initiative and do

the right thing, given the knowledge/qualification, and therefore the

implicit recognition of jIvA's freedom.

 

# Does the ability to know, act and experience confer any freewill to the

jiva.? (Sri Ram kumars mail)

 

The jIvA is bestowed with knowledge and freedom. Without the freedom to use

the knowledge the jIvA would merely be a slave and "initiative" becomes a

moot point.

 

# If brahman resides in all things (both chetana and achetana) and controls

them , how can there be free will?( BG 15-15)

(avanandri voraNuvum asaiyAthu)

 

The concept of God being the antaryAmin or the in-dweller of all things -

animate or inanimate - refers to the relationship between the individual

souls and the Supreme Being. The Lord's role as a "Creator-Controller" does

not preclude jIvA's freewill. He is the cause for the jIvAs/and everything

else. The rules are transparent. How and whether the jIvAs want to play it

fair is upto them. For the record, the Lord likes those who play fair and

prefers their company.

 

[For e.g. if we assume each jIvA as an atom, then freewill and knowledge are

sub-atomic particles like electrons and protons, that impart

"character/behavior" to the atom. And brahman can be imagined as quark(s)

that make-up those sub-atomic particles. So, at the fundamental level,

everything is composed of brahman and verily the same. At the electron and

proton level too it is pretty much the same. But when it comes to the atoms,

an atom of one element is different from an atom of another. An atom of

Hydrogen element is different from an atom of Oxygen! And so are jIvAs. Of

course, no analogy is perfect].

 

# Sri Krishna Kashyaps mail- Gods problem vs individuals problem who is

responsible for the jivas sorry state of affairs?

If it is due to jiva acting on free will, what does the lord imply in BG

16-19? aham.. aaseerushu yonishu ajasram kshibhaami (the

words have been interchanged in order to draw the meaning[_1])

 

The jIvA is responsible. According to the law of karma, we reap what we sow.

Good and bad deeds progressively and recursively place the jIvA in

appropriate environments. Nonetheless, the jIvA at all times has the ability

to choose - to stay and wallow or break-free and soar. While evil acts

affect a jIvA negatively pushing it into deeper morass, it does not deprive

the jIvA of its ability to know or choose right from wrong. Given that

framework, we should use our best judgement / knowledge to live our

daily-life. Going by the concept of prapatti or self-surrender, we (must)

place our trust in God, and do our *chosen* duty, rest assured we will be

delivered. And therefore, we must choose rightly.

 

# If everything proceeds as per the lords designs, does it not amount to

pre-determination? Then where is the room for free will?

 

Yes, and No. In the larger context, everything proceeds according to Lord's

plan. He has plans for the good and He has plans for the evil. And so things

take their own course. But it is the individual's actions that determine the

plan he/she gets. The Lord does not *force* a decision. He provides His

advice and support if asked for, stands back and lets us choose. Just like

He did for Arjuna.

>From Sri S.M.S. Chary's book:

If it is the will of the God that something should or should not happen

regardless of our actions then our effort will become futile or no effort is

required on our part. But if it is the will of the God that an effort should

be made to achieve a result then there is a need for human effort. ".yat

yatnenaiva bhavyam tat...yatnatah bhavati" - Swami Desika's Tattva-

muktA-kalApa. At any given point of time, there is no way for us to know

God's plan for us. Hence, we have to take the initiative.

 

Thanks,

Sriram

 

 

jasn sn [jayasartn]

Monday, July 29, 2002 12:15 AM

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Re: gyAtRtva, kaRtRva and bhOktRtva