Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. Subject : Freewill versus predetermination. Refer : The mails from Sri Ram Kumar, Sri Krishna Kashyap and Sri Sadananda Observation upon reading mails displayed so far on this subject: # There is a strong possibility to mix up the jiva as the doer and the jiva as having free will. # Our discussion has to be focussed on whether the so called freedom to act, think etc is “notional or actual’ as Sri Sadananda asks. # The lord telling ways of doing Karma and renunciation of the same seem to take us away from the subject. Or can it be interpreted that the lord shows the way. You take up the proper course (a case of freewill?) # The quotes used in the second part of sri Sadananda’s mail talk about the ‘attitude’ that one must hold on to–irrespective of whether it falls in the context of action or non-action or inaction - but less about whether the lord grants the person the freedom to take the course - or whether the person chooses a course on his own volition - or is allowed / influenced to take a particular course of action in which case predetermination can be said to take precedence over free will # There is also the possibility to slip into Kalai nuances in this discussion and my humble request is to stick to the core issue. Once again coming back to the subject, Is the lord granting limited freewill, or no free will or complete freewill - limited freewill:- ‘ niyatham kuru karma’ – do the nithya karma - no freewill :- ‘nimiththaani bhava’ – you are only an instrument. Only I am making things happen. - Complete freewill:- ‘yatha echchasi, ththa kuru’ –whatever I can tell, I have told you, it is now up to you to decide. - Herein the onus of responsibility of the action to be done falls on the jiva so that it is the jiva who has to face the consequences of action (spiralling samsara begins). How not to get smeared by the consequences of action is what the core teaching of Gita is all about (the attitude, renunciation, surrender etc, etc.) But this latter part hardly explains the status of free will. Now looking at it at another level, Simple logic demands that if we say you must have knowledge, then it pre-supposes that there is something to be known. In other words, knowledge is essentially discovery or finding what already is there. Applying this reasoning, if we say that a jiva is born to do certain karma – praarabhdha or whatever it is- does it not pre-suppose that what he is going to do in that birth has already been decided. Then where is the scope for free will. All that the jiva can do is to follow the lord’s advice and reduce additions to his karma back-log. It may not be out of context to quote the famous description by Jharaasandhan in Mahabharatha – a pet quote for many a pouraNika. He says that all the world is a puppet show and the lord the puppet man. The jivas are the puppets controlled by the strings which are nothing other than the strings of karma bondage. The stage, the scenes and screen play are all decided by the puppet man who, using the strings controls the entire action of the puppets. The show is opened or wound up as per his decision. Do the puppets have any say in the whole show? And thus it goes.. Once again calling up our learned friends to contribute and enlighten us (or compound the confusion – to quote an unforgettable phrase from one of our friends:-)) Jayasree Sarnathan Health - Feel better, live better http://health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Dear bhagavatas, Adiyen would like to express my humble thougts on the same subject. 1. In the introduction of many vyakyanams, our poorvacharyas begin with this: The lord has put in lot of efforts to help the jeevatman to attain paramapadam. This starts with creating the leela vibuthi, providing shareerams to all these jivatmans, giving them the shastras, then taking avataras to teach these shastras to the world and also making the nitya suris to take birth in the leela vibuthi. Now with these statements, it is clear that the Lord gives us all the freedom to do what we want. If everything that we do was pre-determined, then why sould the Lord put in all these efforts [krushi] to attain us? According to Sri sampradayam, the Lord [swami] attains his property (jeevatman) [swathu]. Then the question arises as to if the Lord has to attain his property with these much of efforts, then why should he be called as Sathya Sankalpan? if he cannot change all jivatamans by a simple sankalpa to consider him as the upayam to reach moksha. This question again confirms that the Lord providies all the jivas the freewill to choose any hita [means] to attain their purushartha [goal]. Again these purusharthas can be anything such as dharma, artha, kama and moksha. Each of these have different means to attain. In such as scenerio, if the Lord providies the jivas the freewill to do whatever they want, then what is it that we talk about as prarabdha karma, sanchita karma etc? As per my understanding, these karmas determine the body into which a jiva enters [note that the jivatman need not enter a body of a human, he could be sthavaram [tree] or a tiryak [an animal]]. There upon even if the jivatman gets a human birth, the karma determines the environment he is born, the environment he lives etc. Now the jivatman has to live his life in these conditions to enjoy/suffer all his poorva karmas. While doing the same, because he has the free will, he will also does fresh acts [karmas] which will fall into the category of punya or papa. The story would go on like this. That is why we call this as samsara sagaram which has been there from time unknown. Bhagavan with lot of compassion on these jivatamas is continiously trying to help them to come out of this sagaram. And for the same reason does all the krushi that is mentioned in the first paragraph. He has the swatrantryam to punish each jivatman for the deeds [karma] he does but at the same time because of his daya considers small good deeds of the jivatmans as big deeds and based on the same provides us with better environment in the subsequent janmas [better environment is nothing but sadacharya samashrayanam, bhagavata samparkam etc]. The jiva slowly then understands [attains knowledge about] his swaroopam that he is paratantran,he is a sheshan to the Lord, his only purushartam is the kainkaryam to the divine couple [moksha] and the only means to the same is the lord himself [hita]. In short my humble views of the same is: While all the jivas have a freewill to do what they want, a certain aspect of their birth in the leela vibuthi is predetermined. adiyen Ramanuja dasan Raghunandan. Health - Feel better, live better http://health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2002 Report Share Posted August 12, 2002 SrImate rAmAnujAya nama: Looking for word-by-word meaning and purport of the following sAtvika-tyAga Sloka, recited prior to commencing vaidika-kriya-s. bhagavAn-eva sva-niyAmya svarUpa-sthiti pravRtti sva-Seshataika-rasena anena AtmanA kartrA svakIyai: ca upa-karaNai: svArAdhanaika-prayojanAya parama-purusha: sarva-SeshI Sriya:pati: sva-Sesha-bhUtam-idam ....Akhyam-karma svasmai sva-prItaye svayam-eva kArayati. ( Is it from SrI rAmAnuja's nitya-grantham? ) It should clarify the kaRtRtva. aDiyEn rAmAnuja-dAsan //Ramkumar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2002 Report Share Posted August 13, 2002 A larger version of this sattvika tyagam is in third chapter bhasya of sri ramanujacharya on ye me matam idam... verse. of gita. Krishna tg_ramkumar [tg_ram] Monday, August 12, 2002 5:43 PM bhakti-list Re: Free-will vs Pre-determination SrImate rAmAnujAya nama: Looking for word-by-word meaning and purport of the following sAtvika-tyAga Sloka, recited prior to commencing vaidika-kriya-s. bhagavAn-eva sva-niyAmya svarUpa-sthiti pravRtti sva-Seshataika-rasena anena AtmanA kartrA svakIyai: ca upa-karaNai: svArAdhanaika-prayojanAya parama-purusha: sarva-SeshI Sriya:pati: sva-Sesha-bhUtam-idam ....Akhyam-karma svasmai sva-prItaye svayam-eva kArayati. ( Is it from SrI rAmAnuja's nitya-grantham? ) It should clarify the kaRtRtva. aDiyEn rAmAnuja-dAsan //Ramkumar [ The sAttvika-tyAga mentioned in nitya-grantha is of a slightly different form and is the one adopted for use in daily ArAdhanam. For Sri Ramanuja's idea of sAttvika-tyAga in the Gita, please also see http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jun2000/0070.html -- Moderator ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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