Guest guest Posted July 31, 2002 Report Share Posted July 31, 2002 Sri: Srimathe ramanujaya namaha Dear Members, I am posting this mail without reading the last few emails on this topic. But Sri Ramkumar missed out another aspect which conditions the jiiva. Namely, avidya. Sri M Ananthasayanam Iyengar explains that while advaita says that avidya affects the paramatma (who is defined as satyam, **jnAnam**, anantam), visisthadvaita correctly says that avidya affects the jiivatma and not the paramatma perse. Hope this concept should add to the disccussion of gyAtRtva, kaRtRva and bhOktRtva. Regards, Malolan Cadambi [ From Advaita's standpoint this is a rather tricky technical issue. Advaitins differ as to whether the locus of avidya is Brahman or the jIva. The Vivarana commentary takes the locus to be Brahman and the Bhamati takes the locus to be the jIva. No doubt there are logical difficulties in either theory. Further, in Advaita, the paramAtman is the non-dual Brahman with sattva guNa superimposed. In all cases the subject of the avidya, i.e., the individual who practically speaking is affected by avidya, is the jIva, since it is the jIva who is the subject of bheda. Since this is an idealistic viewpoint it is not quite correct to say that avidya "affects" the paramAtman since the very idea of the paramAtman is a result only of the jIva's affliction by bheda or difference. Those well-versed in Advaita like Sri Sadananda can correct me if I am wrong -- Moderator ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 --- Malolan R Cadambi <mcadambi wrote: .. Sri M Ananthasayanam Iyengar explains that > while advaita says that avidya affects the paramatma (who is defined > as satyam, **jnAnam**, anantam), visisthadvaita correctly says that > avidya affects the jiivatma and not the paramatma perse. > [ From Advaita's standpoint this is a rather tricky technical issue. > Advaitins differ as to whether the locus of avidya is Brahman or > the jIva. The Vivarana commentary takes the locus to be Brahman > and the Bhamati takes the locus to be the jIva. No doubt there are > logical difficulties in either theory. Further, in Advaita, the > paramAtman is the non-dual Brahman with sattva guNa superimposed. > In all cases the subject of the avidya, i.e., the individual who > practically speaking is affected by avidya, is the jIva, since it > is the jIva who is the subject of bheda. Since this is an idealistic > viewpoint it is not quite correct to say that avidya "affects" > the paramAtman since the very idea of the paramAtman is a result > only of the jIva's affliction by bheda or difference. > > Those well-versed in Advaita like Sri Sadananda can correct me if > I am wrong -- Moderator ] > Yes Moderator is right. If avidya affects paramaatma then paramaatma is no more paramaatma. There is lot of misunderstanding of the adviatic position. Yes there are two schools of thought and some of the misinterpretation came from post adviatic scholars. Bhaavaruupa avidya is mostly post- Shankara postion which Bhagavaan Ramanuja rightly criticizes in his Shree Bhaasya. Conceptually 'ignorance' is not some positive to cover anything. Ignorance is only absence of knowledge - or abhaava ruupam. Avidya in terms of 'ignorance' is only centered on jiiva -Since it is jiiva who is the one who does not know - this is true in both advaitic and vishishhTaadviatic traditons. Also avidya is beginningless - this is also true in both traditions and logically it should be so since there cannot be any beginning for ignorance. I cannot say my ignorance of chemistry started at some point in time - yet the beginningless avidya can have an end when knowledge is gained. But even the concept of beginnig or end are concepts of time and time itself is considerd as part of the jagat - as space-time continuum. That which is beyond the cause-effect is beyond the concept of time too. This is one of the reasons why avidya cannot be of bhaavaruupa or tangible thing to have a beginning. At paramaatma level the samething is referred to maaya - as power of the Lord. At Brahman level all these concepts have no relavence in adviatic tradition since - sat eva soumaya idam agram asiit - ekam eva advitiiyam -is interpreted with pure existence conscious infiniteness or bliss is understood as with no sajaati vijaati swagata bhedaas while vishishhTadviata considers swagata or bhedaas or internal differences - jiiva, jagat and paramaatma. In adviatic tradition a distinction is made in terms of Brahman and paramaatma - levels. One is absolute non-differentiated infinite sat chit ananda saruupa-Nothing further can be said about it. The other is Iswara or more similar to Lord Narayana -the jagat kaaraNa. How and when jiiva comes into picture due to avidya is inexplainable or part of anirvachaniiyam which Bhagavaan Ramanuja criticizes as well in his Shree Bhaasya. It is like seed/tree situation - which comes first - it is anirvachaniiyam - One way to look at it is when the house on fire do not sit down and sart inquiring how did this fire start etc. First thing to do is to get out of the house and then inquire about it. But once one gets out of the house there is neither the house nor fire to inquire about. The very logic of inquiry fails here since - naishaa tarkena matiraapaneya says the shruti - one cannot logically establish the fact. Hence it is anirvachaniiyam at the level of intellect. I prefer not to dwell further on this in this list. I am hoping to write notes on Shree Bhaasya from my perspective. I am still learning though. I find Shree S.M.S. Chari mama's books are most revealing and easily understandable. Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Health - Feel better, live better http://health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2002 Report Share Posted August 2, 2002 Shree Rushikesa Pranaams and thanks for your mail. I am taking the liberty to post your private mail to the list itself since this is important concern to all members of the list. You are right - we need a simple and brief description of each vedic system of philosophy in lay man terms. Shree Mani has done recently to some extent in this Bhakti list. There is an adviata home page by Shree Vidyashankar which presents the essence of advaita. I am not sure if there is an equivalent page on Vishisshtaadviata. I will try to consult Shree Krishna and/or Mani to see if the philosophy can be explained objectively in simple terms for those who want to learn more. There should be one generic home page from which those who are interested can diverge. It is good if Vidya and Mani perhaps Shirisha Rao can join and come up with one common home page for aastika philosophies. Hari OM! Sadananda --- Rushikesa Madhava <rushikesa wrote: > > Dear Sadananda, > Fond Greetings, > Can you please list the differences between Advaita, Dvaita > and Visista Advaita in simple lay-man terms? I have tried > going through the famous books , but they assume the reader. > Thanks a lot. > Hare Ramanuja Hare Ramanuja Ramanuja Ramanuja Hare Hare! > Rushikesa > ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Health - Feel better, live better http://health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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