Free will Vs Predetermination

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Raghunandan,

Your sentences below throw light upon the much disputed paramatma svarUpam and

rUpam ( the outward look ). Pardon me for digressing into a different topic.

"He has the

swatrantryam to punish each jivatman for the deeds

[karma] he does but at the same time because of his

daya considers small good deeds of the jivatmans as

big deeds and based on the same provides us with

better environment in the subsequent janmas [better

environment is nothing but sadacharya samashrayanam,

bhagavata samparkam etc]."

This I am writing because, I was thinking abt this, only yesterday, from the

discourses of my master and my discussions with my father.

There is a well-known dispute ( though not in this list ) about the svarUpam of

the supreme, whether it is a male or a female.

Forgetting the rUpam ( or the outward form - That supreme power can manifest

itself in any form to the seeking devotee ), let us concentrate on the svarUpam

of the supreme or let us concentrate on the basic attributes to this svarUpam.

A feminine quality represents pAratantryam. It need not be taken as

subbordinance, but it actually means, living according to the wishes of loved

ones. A women form stands as an example to this. She, in her childhood, lives in

accordance with the wishes of her parents, then according to the wishes of her

husband, then according to the wishes of her children. A mother, out of extreme

love to her children, does not try to stop them or hurt them. If a child insists

on getting something, she procures it for the child. She does what is priyam to

the child. She also acts as a puruSha kAram.

A masculine quality represents svAtantryam. A father, out of extreme love

towards his child, tries to correct him, by punishing him or by not giving him

his likings, if they are harmful to him. If for example, a person is having a

heart disease and is afraid to go to a hospital, fearing the suffering there or

due to lack of faith in the doctor, there may be two possibilities here, if I am

his care taker :

1) I may leave him like that, as I love him dearly and cannot see his suffering

in the hospital.

2) I predict the imminent danger, scold him, give him courage, and if required,

drag him forcibly to the hospital which gives him the best treatment and get him

cured of his disease.

( Though the first possibility here, can be a cause of a dispute, I have given

it as a mere example. )

The second one is hitam to the suffering one. In this context, I am not giving

importance to the appearence of the Lord ( in masculine or feminine form ). It

is the quality which is more important. For example, in some homes, mother does

the hitam to the child and father, the priyam. We see some men having feminine

qualities, like being too shy etc and some women having masculine qualities,

aggressive natured etc. A good house is one, in which one of the mother or

father is aggressive and the other is supportive towards the children.

The supreme controller, should have both the love of a mother and a father. But,

the controlling factor or the aspect of the supreme which does hitam to the

child should be slightly in excess of the priyam part. Otherwise, the erring

child will never be corrected. So, though there is a free-will given by the

almighty to us, the excercise of the controlling power and the svAtantryam is a

must. It is the predominance of this controlling or svAtantryam aspect of the

Lord, which makes the Lord, Him.

Srinivasa on the seven hills depicts this clearly. He is the father, with the

mother on his chest. She has taken the most appropriate place and forces Him to

give us, our likings. He gives them to us, but at the same time, He gives our

wishes to us, in such a way that they do not harm us. In the mean time, we

sometimes loose patience, which is bad.

Thus paramAtma svarUpam can be best explained to be having the form of our

Sriman Narayana. As you go close and close to the paramAtma, you realize Him,

with all His kalyANa guNAs and having the mother in His Heart ( Sriman Narayana

). This the complete form of the Lord, adored by all our AAcharyas and Alwars.

Jai Sriman Narayana

Maruthi Ramanuja Das.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Maruthi Pavan,

The following is my understanding of the topic of

Paramatma roopa and swaroopa. Request all other

bhagavatas to pardon and correct me if I am wrong.

 

As far as the swaroopa of the jivatma or the para

brahmhan is concerned, both do not have any gender.

The jivatma because it is confined into a body [based

on the karma] has a gender. Again the gender is only

to the body. Thus a name given to the jivatman is not

for the jivatman but to the body alone.

As far as the swaroopa of the supreme bhramhan is

concerned, the same holds good. But the supreme

bhramhan is also identified as Narayana which also has

a divya mangala vigraham of a male gender.

 

Now coming back to what I was explaining in the other

mail, as the topic was freewill Vs pre determined

actions, I did not explain in length about the

following:

 

"He has the swatrantryam to punish each jivatman for

the deeds [karma] he does but at the same time

because of his daya considers small good deeds of the

jivatmans as big deeds and based on the same provides

us with better environment in the subsequent janmas

[better environment is nothing but sadacharya

samashrayanam, bhagavata samparkam etc]."

 

Sriman Naryana has many kalyana gunas [infinite] along

with swatantryam. At any instance when a jivatman

comes face to face with the Lord, He would want to

punish the jivatman for his wrong deeds. But at the

same time, he also has the kalyana gunas like

sousheelyam, swamithvam, karunyam ...etc. He also has

the praapthi to attain every jivatman. Infact he has

done a lot of krushi to attain a jivatman. According

to our Poorvacharyas, it is he who has to attain a

jivatman hence he considers some of the good deeds

done by the jivatma even though they were done

accidently [Yadruschika] and because of that helps the

jivatma by providing him a better body and

environment. There are many instances in our puranas

that explain the same.

 

Swami Ramanuja was the sishya of Yadava prakasha for a

long time. Once during this time, the king's daughter

gets under the spell of a bramharaakshasa.

Yadavaprakasha based on the invitation from the king,

tries to drive away the raakshasa. Then the

bramharaakshasa narrates the past of yadava prakasha.

Yadava prakasha in his earlier life, would have been a

reptile. Accidently [not knowingly] the reptile eats

the bhagavata shesa of some bhagavatas who had just

finished having their prasadam. This alone makes him

a vedantin in his next life [as Yadavaprakaasha] who

got the samparkam of Swami Ramanuja and later became

his disciple and attained moksha. [Guruparampara

Prabhavam].

 

Even the story of sage Narada in Srimad Bhagavatam

proves the same.

 

Hence Bhagavan exercises his swatantrayam on those

jivas who do not have any sambandham of his

bhagavatas/Piratti/Himself. But his daya takesover

moment a jiva has a bhagavata sambhandam even if it is

accidental. Swami Ramanuja in the Gadyatrayam calls

Him as "Apaara Kaarunya MahOdadhe" i,e an ocean of

karunai.

 

With my limited ability and limited understanding I

have putforth my thoughts. Please pardon me for

anything wrong in the content.

adiyen Ramanuja Dasan.

Raghunandan

 

 

 

 

Health - Feel better, live better

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[Guest guest]

SrImate rAmAnujAya nama:

 

The jIva would reduce to an ontological absurdity

in viSishTAdvaita, if the brahman were completely

responsible for the jIva's gyAtRtva, kaRtRtva and bhOktRtva.

 

The brahman by Its Will originally provides the jIva with

gyAtRtva, kaRtRtva & bhOktRtva.

Therefore the jIva, should *actively* utilize these abilities

with the realization that these are provided by the

brahman for brahman.

ie the jIva learns, acts & experiences in the mood of sAtvika-tyAga

in subservience to the brahman (remeber Sesha-Seshi bhAva)

 

sAtvika-tyAga = kaRtRtva-tyAga + mamatA-tyAga +

phala-tyAga + phala-sanga-tyAga.

 

kaRtRtva-tyAga = the ability to act is accorded by the brahman.

therefore I give up (tyAga) the notion that

'I am the independent doer'.

 

mamatA-tyAga = give up ownership of the act.

 

phala-tyAga = Offer the outcome (whatever it may be), to the brahman.

 

phala-sanga-tyAga = Give up attachment to choosing *a* particular

outcome out of many.

 

'tyAga' in sAtvika-tyAga would be meaningless, if the jIva were not

originally provided with gyAtRtva, kaRtRtva and bhOktRtva

by the brahman.

 

In other words, the word, "tyAga" indicates that jIva has to

*actively* utilize these provided capabilities, but give up (tyAga)

notion these faculties were provided for its own individual

gratification but rather for utilization in Sesha-vRtti

(active service) to the brahman.

 

 

Otherwise the concept of jIva would reduce to the passive

insentient (jaDa) 'achit' tattva like a stone or log of wood.

 

All veda-s, bhagavad-gIta and other sAStra-s are addressed to

the sentient (chit) baddha-jIva in order to guide it to

perform dAsya-vRtti *actively* for the brahman.

 

When was last time any of us starved in refusal until

the brahman personally brought food?

 

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja-dAsa

//Ramkumar

[Guest guest]

Dear mr. Ramkumar,

 

your email is very appropriate. In fact there is some real difference

between Dvaita and Visistadvaita also in this regard.

 

Eventhough dvaita system accepts that jiva is a karta. In dvaita, since jiva

is a dependent entity on God, pradhana kartrtva is still God's. Jiva is only

a subservient entity. Then one may ask: if HE is the pradana karta or main

doer, why does God not get punished for the acts done by Jiva? for this the

dvaita system's answer is : God is a bhokta ie. he experiences the pleasures

and good effects of jiva's acts but not the bad effects. ( as far as I

understand...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). This is clearly not

accepted by visistadvaita. According to visistadvaita, Jiva reaps his own

karmas whether good or bad according to his actions. In fact you can see Dr.

SMS Chari's books on this issue in his Upanisad, Sutras and Gita book (yet

to be published). He goes into the appropriate upanisadic statements such as

esha hi karta jnata...., karta sastrarthavatvat... ( I sent a separate email

on the release of his books and how to obtain them)

 

*********

Note this is only a quiz... just to perk the readers' interest in classical

works like Gita.

* quiz ( what is the meaning of the verse 14-11, gita : nanyam gunebhyah

kartaram yada drastanupasyati ... which seems to indicate otherwise?-

similarly, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahamkara vimudatma

karta aham iti manyate- also indicates that gunas are the doer not atma!!...

nakartrtvam na karmani lokasya srjati prabhuh.. 5-14..... note the

difference in karya karana kartrtve hetuh prakritiruchyate... purushah sukha

duhkhanam bhoktrtve heturuchyate...(13-20.. which indicates prakriti as

doer!..and jiva is enjoyer...

13-29 clearly says: prakrityaiva hi karmani kriyamani sarvashah yah pasyati

tathatmanam akartaram sa pasyati... only prakriti does all the work... who

sees that atma is not the doer, is right!!)

 

Guess what... these puzzling statements need some real serious kalakshepams

under great acharyas. In the absense of such kalakeshepams or as an value

added resource one can read the forthcoming SMS Chari's book on Gita.

 

**********************************************

 

Coming back to our discussion here:

 

Hence, according to visistadvaita, Though we are totally dependent, our

freedom is clearly given to us. Using this given freedom we can use it for

good or bad which we have to experience and not God will not experience

them.

 

However, among individual people who belong to Visistadvaita, there is quite

a range of beliefs regarding jiva's freedom. People, in their daily life,

tend to understand and use this concept in different ways. For example,

some people tend to reduce their self effort, thinking that it is all in

God's hands, eventhough they believe that they have to put their effort. If

we perfectly understand and live the way we understand this issue, I guess

we will be like a stithaprajna or an ideal karmayogi. some people..even do

all they can do and if it works well give the merit to God and if it fails,

blame it on them.... or some will put the blame on God!!..

 

Isn't this subject "kartrtva.. cool or what?... by the way can anyone just

write a 3 line definition of kartrva? ( believe me... it is not obvious).

another quiz... if jiva is a karta ... does he gets transformed during this

act in any way?....(these are some questions asked by advaitins..)..

 

this is the subject for which one needs to contemplate deeply...(mananam.)..

I am interested in this since this subject fascinated me for years.

 

asmadgurbhyo namah.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namah

 

krishna kashyap

 

 

tg_ramkumar [tg_ram]

Thursday, August 08, 2002 4:54 PM

bhakti-list

Re: Free will Vs Predetermination

 

 

SrImate rAmAnujAya nama:

 

The jIva would reduce to an ontological absurdity

in viSishTAdvaita, if the brahman were completely

responsible for the jIva's gyAtRtva, kaRtRtva and bhOktRtva.