Guest guest Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. The analysis continues… Based on the responses received so far, certain clarifications are given here: # Freewill must not be equated with positive effort. A sense of discomfiture owing to the mix-up of freewill and positive effort is palpable, because of precepts handed down to us. These precepts, which have been handed down to us in the post-Ramanuja period, can not be countered. Therefore our attempt must be on lines of how to see them in the backdrop of a wider perspective without undermining their import. An attempt to that effect is given in poser-5, which will be sent to the list shortly. # Contention of lack of or absence of freewill also does not undermine the importance of action, as it is not synonymous with non-action or inaction. The contention only reiterates that what is perceived as freewill at any given point of time by a jiva is actually a scripted will. The entire exercise is to see the same thing through two different paradigms. # The discussion is necessitated by the fact that this question has not been dealt with in direct terms by sruti texts. What is available is for interpretation and inference only. (I stand to be corrected by our learned friends. If sruti texts are available, It is requested that readers produce them in this forum.) The reason could have been that whatever people did those days, they did as a commandment of the Lord. I have heard that even beggars in those days who sought alms chanted bhagavan nama and accepted them (alms) as what had been given by the lord. # Therefore the analysis is continued, quoting relevant portions from Sribhashyam to Vedanta sutras, (in this mail) and sruti texts in the next mail and some arguments drawing inspiration from Ramanuja’s way of argument in another mail. Then the poser –5 is planned. Meanwhile readers are requested to correct me wherever I sound wrong or absurd and contribute their thoughts too. The following has been taken from the Sribhashyam to Vedanta Sutras- iii-3, wherein Ramanuja spells out the reasoning for why and how the Brahman can be proved by shatras only. In the course of ascertaining whether Brahman is the sole producing agent of the produced things, he says that this cannot be proved by logic. Because our logical inference stops with the jiva as an agent for produced effects and the produced effects, though have resulted from the ‘desire’ (freewill?), are due to karma and the qualities of goodness that the jiva has come to possess from the Brahman plus prakruthi sambhandam. In the matter of how to relate this to someone (Brahman) who is distinct from the jiva, our logical inference fails to help us and so the search goes on and ends up in shastras – so says Ramanuja. In Ramanuja’s words :- (Note: - wherever the expression qualities of ‘goodness etc’ is used, it must be read that ‘goodness’ stands for the auspicious qualities that the jiva comes to possess when the Brahman which was One in beginning ‘became many’ and etc stands for the three guna-mix) “…all produced effects such as bodies, etc are seen to be associated with pleasures, etc, which are themselves the produced effects of the qualities of goodness, etc. Therefore it has necessarily to be admitted that all produced effects result from the qualities of goodness etc. The qualities of goodness etc which form the source of wonderful variety of produced effects, are indeed the special characteristics found in the (producing) cause. It is (only) in consequence of the modification of the internal organ (or manas) of the person who is possessed of those (qualities) that it becomes appropriate to declare that those produced effects result from those (qualities). And in the case of such a person, the possession of those (qualities) is due to karma. (*The footnote here says that karma here means actions done in previous births and the effects of those actions.*) Therefore for the very commencement of any particular work, like the producing agent’s knowledge and power, his association with karma (also) has necessarily to be admitted to form, indeed, the cause of produced effect. (It has necessarily to be so admitted) for the reason that the wonderful nature of (the agent’s) knowledge and power is (itself) due to karma. Even when it is held that the desire is the cause of the commencement of work, it is not possible to give up the (agent’s) association with karma, for the reason that that (desire), which is specially characterized by its relation to some particular object or other, is itself due to the qualities of goodness, etc.” This passage seems to well substantiate our inference in poser –1, THAT IT IS THE KIND OF KARMA ONE HAS TO ENDURE THAT DECIDES THE ACTION, PROMPTED BY THE SO-CALLED FREE-WILL AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND- Established by the example of the bird trapped inside the room. Jayasree sarnathan. HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2002 Report Share Posted August 14, 2002 SRI: Dear Jayasree, Your example of the bird trying to escape from a trapped room is good. Here in poser 1 you have discussed that the free will is guided by the karma. Relates to the famous saying "vidhi vazhi madi sellum". To me this particular attribute of "free will" relates to the praradhra karma (karma which is already fructified). It would be good if you could take the discussion on "free will" relating to sanchitham & aagami karma (which arises due to our present act). In other words is there an aspect of free will which is not guided by the karma or by the Will of the Lord? adiyen Lakshmi >>> jayasartn 08/14/02 08:52pm >>> SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. This passage seems to well substantiate our inference in poser –1, THAT IT IS THE KIND OF KARMA ONE HAS TO ENDURE THAT DECIDES THE ACTION, PROMPTED BY THE SO-CALLED FREE-WILL AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND- Established by the example of the bird trapped inside the room. Jayasree sarnathan. HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------- - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH - To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list Group Home: bhakti-list Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/ Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Srimathe Ramanujaaya Namah: For a while let us asume that what the jivatman thinks as freewill is nothing but the "scripted will". Now with this assumption, I seek answers for the following questions. 1. What is karma? 2. If the jivatman is acting on a predetermined will of the Eshwara, then how is the jivatma enjoying/suffering the fruits of the karma? 3. How is that the jiva takes the blames [suffers the dosha] for all the wrong doings in his life, starting from small theft to anything more serious if it was scripted by the Eshwara? 4. Is it not incorrect on the part of Eshwara to make the jivatman suffer for all the mistakes that he did not do on his own?! 5. What is anaadi karma vaasana and ruchi? 6. If the Eshwaran is scripting all the actions for us, why is he struggling to get us out of this cycle of birth and death? adiyen Ramanuja Dasan raghunandan --- jasn sn <jayasartn wrote: > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. > > The analysis continues… > > Based on the responses received so far, certain > clarifications are given here: > > # Freewill must not be equated with positive effort. [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha I have few things to add to this mail, that need clarification. If pre-determination exists then God becomes partial. I.E it might look like he wants only people like alwars and acharyas to attain moksham and that is why he made them. If it is free-will, it is only karma that makes us obtain results - here when I say karma, it is not just one person's karma- it is the combined effort of karmas of everyone. We know God, the brahman is impartial, so pre-determination is ruled out. But if it were just free-will then the concept of antharyamithvam i.e he is the niyanta i.e the inner controller and that he does everything - is again ruled out. If pre-determination doesn't exist, predictions cannot be done. Nammazhwar foresaw Ramanujar's birth and sang "poliga poliga poliga". We've seen Nostradamus' predictions done centuried ago are still being proved to be happening. If free-will do not exist the concept of karma becomes mayai. sounds like a paradox?! Both do exist and both do not exist? We need some strong, clear explanations with appropriate references from our sampradayam and siddhantham i.e from the ubhaya vedas. Learned scholars please clarify this. Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan, Lakshmi Narasimhan >Bhashyam Raghunandan <rbhashyam >bhakti-list >bhakti-list >Re: Free-will vs Pre-determination (Ramanuja) >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 03:29:56 -0700 (PDT) > >Srimathe Ramanujaaya Namah: > >For a while let us asume that what the jivatman thinks >as freewill is nothing but the "scripted will". Now >with this assumption, I seek answers for the following >questions. > >1. What is karma? >2. If the jivatman is acting on a predetermined will >of the Eshwara, then how is the jivatma >enjoying/suffering the fruits of the karma? >3. How is that the jiva takes the blames [suffers the >dosha] for all the wrong doings in his life, starting >from small theft to anything more serious if it was >scripted by the Eshwara? >4. Is it not incorrect on the part of Eshwara to make >the jivatman suffer for all the mistakes that he did >not do on his own?! >5. What is anaadi karma vaasana and ruchi? >6. If the Eshwaran is scripting all the actions for >us, why is he struggling to get us out of this cycle >of birth and death? > >adiyen Ramanuja Dasan >raghunandan >--- jasn sn <jayasartn wrote: > > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA. > > > > The analysis continues… > > > > Based on the responses received so far, certain > > clarifications are given here: > > > > # Freewill must not be equated with positive effort. >[...] > > >----------------------------- > - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH - >To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list >Group Home: bhakti-list >Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/ > > >Your use of is subject to _______________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2002 Report Share Posted August 31, 2002 Om Namo Narayana I have been away on a holiday and hence my late response to this discussion. Although I do not have any reference to texts etc. My understanding of fate and freewill goes something like this. Karma determines ones fate and freewill enables one to choose a course of action among many alternatives. The best I could think of as an example is that of a cow tied to the post in a field. Fate is like the string with which the cow is tied to the post. with freewill the cow could choose to graze the field upto the radius of the length of the string. If it chooses to resign itself to fate and do nothing then it is not utilizing what is possible given its karma. Please pardon me if I have offended anybody with this explanation. Sounderrajan Ranganathan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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