Brahman's omnipresence after cosmic dissolution

[Guest guest]

asmad sarva-gurubhya: nama:

SrI-vishNave nama:

 

Dear Members,

 

Wondering as to how the folowing descriptions of

the brahman (ie SrIman-nArAyaNa) relate to one another:

 

a) antaryAmi-tva (pervasiveness, a.k.a svarUpa-vyApti)

 

b) vibhu-tva (omnipresence)

 

c) ananta-tva (spatial, temporal & material transcendence)

 

d) satya-tva (immutability)

 

 

Trying to understand these properties in the following states:

 

1) praLaya-daSa (ie the material universe in its dissovled state)

 

2) during jagat-sRshTi (cosmos regeneration after dissolution)

 

 

Question:

 

q1) Does only matter, but not Space (deSa) collapse

during praLaya?

That way the brahman as vibhu does not need to shrink down

and satya-tvam & ananta-tva remain valid.

 

q2) Does 'vibhu-tva' go by the name 'antaryAmi-tva' when we speak of

the brahman in relation to jIva-s or matter ?

 

 

Thanks,

 

aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

//Ramkumar

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.

 

Dear sri Pradeep,

I agree with your explanation.

Elsewhere (i am not able recall in whch text exactly)the Lord has

said that'curving back upon myself, I create again and again'

In a snake-like fountain of energy, spewing forth and coiling back is

what we can visualise about creation and delusion.

Maharishi Mahesh yogi conceptualises krishna as the massive black

hole which according to one version of scienc, will gobble up the

entire universe at the time of Maha pralaya.

Even at the beginning of creation, the chaturmukha Brahma doing tapas

to make craetion happen, is likened to the 'heating up'-the initial

churning to facilitate quintuplication of gross elements.

 

According to texts 3types of pralaya are taking place.

(1)The continuing pralaya - every day people or some life form

dying / withering

(2)that which takes place at the end of a kalpa, namely at the end of

a day of Brahma.

what happens then is

#the first 3 worlds, viz., bhuloka, bhuvarloka &suvar loka get

destroyed.

# the 4th one, the Maharloka is partly destroyed and partly

undestroyed and teh beings there shift to the next higher world,

which is janoloka. The ,ast ,namely, Jano, Tapo and satya loka do not

get destroyed in teh 2nd type of pralaya.

during this 2nd pralaya, after destriying the 3 worlds , the Lord is

said to take the form of a child, Balakrishna, on a peepal leaf.

# the 3rd and the last type of pralaya takes place at the end of the

life of Brahma. at this state, all beings, the chetanas and achetanas

rest in sukshma form in the Lord.The Lord alon eremains, with

jivatmas an dmatter, lying in Him, in subtle form, undifferentiared.

 

The 2 questions raised by sri ram kumar have no relevance at this

state.

There is no talk of shrinking or growing small in size.

We can not spot a single word in sribhashya to Vedanta surtas,to tell

that the Lord grew big etc, at the time of creation. All that is said

is He bacme many. Ramanuja uses the words very carefully. similarly

it is to be assumed that no shrinking takes palce at pralaya. All the

qualities of the Brahman continue to be there at pralaya as at

creation. The only difference pertains to whether It is manifested or

not. it must then be assumed that even the kaala-desa parimANam (the

time-space continum)and other dimensions remain unmanifested and not

destroyed or shrunk. This is something beyond our perception. To our

mortal and finite brains, praalya resembles the existence of a

massive black hole (krishnaarpaNam).

 

jayasree sarnathan.

[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

I know that brahman's nature is beyond the mind's grasp

and verbal description.

 

I don't think it is terrible to grapple with It anyway.

(till we attain mukti)

 

Anyway, let me elaborate my wildly mundane questions

(due to my kArpaNya-dosha-pahata-svabhAva).

 

I do not know what 'vi-bhu' means exactly.

(does it possibly mean 'That which has become many' ?)

 

but as opposed to 'aNu-tva' (infinitesimal geometric dimension

of the jIva), I speculate 'vi-bhu' means that the brahman has an

infinite extent, pervading & enveloping (physically, spatially,

geometrically too) everything else that exists in It.

 

Due to this infinite expanse, we could say brahman's pervasiveness

(antar-bahir-vyApti) in everything else is only incidental to the

vibhu-tva, since everything else only exists in brahman physically.

 

[ a question here - does the brahman exist in places where nothing

else exists? ]

 

During total cosmos dissolution, does only the matter, with the

exception of the space it had previously grossly manifested in,

withdraw into primordial-subtle-matter (mUla-prakRti)?

 

I perceive difficulty with an answer to this question

one way or the other.

 

a) If we suppose that Space contracts geometrically, what happens

to the brahma-svarUpa (vibhu) which was earlier present

in that Space?

If we say brahma-svarUpa does not contract, is the brahman

present where nothing else exists? (so satya-tva remains valid)

 

b) If we suppose the Space does not contract at praLaya,

is the Space itself verily brahman (ekam eva advitIyam)?

 

If you are participating with my insanity, please also articulate

your replies from the standpoint of the brahman being both the

material & instrumental cause of the material universe.

 

 

rAmAnuja-dAsan

//Ramkumar

 

 

bhakti-list, "Ramkumar T.G." <tg_ram@e...> wrote:

>

> asmad sarva-gurubhya: nama:

> SrI-vishNave nama:

>

> Dear Members,

>

> Wondering as to how the folowing descriptions of

> the brahman (ie SrIman-nArAyaNa) relate to one another:

>

> a) antaryAmi-tva (pervasiveness, a.k.a svarUpa-vyApti)

>

> b) vibhu-tva (omnipresence)

>

> c) ananta-tva (spatial, temporal & material transcendence)

>

> d) satya-tva (immutability)

>

>

> Trying to understand these properties in the following states:

>

> 1) praLaya-daSa (ie the material universe in its dissovled state)

>

> 2) during jagat-sRshTi (cosmos regeneration after dissolution)

>

>

> Question:

>

> q1) Does only matter, but not Space (deSa) collapse

> during praLaya?

> That way the brahman as vibhu does not need to shrink down

> and satya-tvam & ananta-tva remain valid.

>

> q2) Does 'vibhu-tva' go by the name 'antaryAmi-tva' when we speak of

> the brahman in relation to jIva-s or matter ?

>

>

> Thanks,

>

> aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

> //Ramkumar

>

>

>

>

> ---------------

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> The most personalized portal on the Web!

[Guest guest]

Sriman Narayana:

 

This universe of space and time forms only one fourth of the vyapti

of the Purusha or the Brahman or Sriman Narayanan (pl refer to

Purusha Sooktam).The other three parts are beyond this material

universe of space and time and is Spiritual (Amrutham divi) in

dimension and so it is beyond mental comprehension.All sensory

knowledge including mental speculation stop there and therefore

Sruti/Shastras are the only source to understand entities like mind,

Jeevathma.

Thus Anu-tva of the Jiva does'nt mean microscopic material existence

and instead it means that the Jiva's awareness is limited to his own

kshetra (shareera) as opposed to the Vibhu-tva of Sriman Narayana who

is aware of everything in all kshetras.(Bhagavad gita 13-2,3).

During Pralaya this visible universe or space and time and all the

infinite Jivas with all their attributes gets reduced to their

unmanifested state which can never be explained as the Jivas will

never be a witness for those.It is a state where time stands

still!!.The contraction in pralaya does not mean material or

geometric contraction!!instead it means becomming unmanifest!!.

 

Space or Akasha cannot be brahman because it is jada or achit without

conciousness.Mind and Jiva are more subtler to space and time and

Brahman or Narayana is the subtlemost conciousness of conciousness

who is controlling everything from within.

This Sarvantarayamitva also implies Bahirvyapti.He is in us at the

same time He is in all things external to us.Thus He is everywhere.

 

This is Adiyen's 2 cents worth.

 

Namo Sriman Narayana

Suresh

[Guest guest]

Sri:

 

Sure, the Truth is beyond our minds and

we depend on the SAstra pramANa-s.

 

but inevitably & unfortunately we all happen to have to

use our minds in understanding the pramANa-s and the prAmANika-s

 

Anyway, if we leave out spatial, geometric & material dimensions

and if understand vibhu-tva & aNu-tva strictly in terms of

pure consciousness only, then it becomes easy to understand

vibhu-tva and aNu-tva.

 

but antar-vyApti, bahir-vyApti, jagat-upAdAna-kAraNatvam of the

brahman apparently involve spatial, material & geometric aspects to

them and as such get in the way of comprehension.

 

rAmAnuja-dAsa

//Ramkumar

 

 

Of course everyone tries to understand the sAStra-s with the

bhakti-list, "sureshsmr" <sureshsmr@h...> wrote:

> Sriman Narayana:

>

> This universe of space and time forms only one fourth of the vyapti

> of the Purusha or the Brahman or Sriman Narayanan (pl refer to

> Purusha Sooktam).The other three parts are beyond this material

> universe of space and time and is Spiritual (Amrutham divi) in

> dimension and so it is beyond mental comprehension.All sensory

> knowledge including mental speculation stop there and therefore

> Sruti/Shastras are the only source to understand entities like

mind,

> Jeevathma.

> Thus Anu-tva of the Jiva does'nt mean microscopic material

existence

> and instead it means that the Jiva's awareness is limited to his

own

> kshetra (shareera) as opposed to the Vibhu-tva of Sriman Narayana

who

> is aware of everything in all kshetras.(Bhagavad gita 13-2,3).

> During Pralaya this visible universe or space and time and all the

> infinite Jivas with all their attributes gets reduced to their

> unmanifested state which can never be explained as the Jivas will

> never be a witness for those.It is a state where time stands

> still!!.The contraction in pralaya does not mean material or

> geometric contraction!!instead it means becomming unmanifest!!.

>

> Space or Akasha cannot be brahman because it is jada or achit

without

> conciousness.Mind and Jiva are more subtler to space and time and

> Brahman or Narayana is the subtlemost conciousness of conciousness

> who is controlling everything from within.

> This Sarvantarayamitva also implies Bahirvyapti.He is in us at the

> same time He is in all things external to us.Thus He is everywhere.

>

> This is Adiyen's 2 cents worth.

>

> Namo Sriman Narayana

> Suresh