/cinnaJ/ciRu kAlE: Shri Harikrishnan's and Shri Vasudevan's comments

[Guest guest]

/Om namO nArAyaNAya ||

 

/anpuLLa Shri Vasudevan:

 

Thanks for the refernce to Shri /perukaraNai chakravarthy achArya Swami's

translation of the expression /ciRRaJ/ciru kAl as /ciRu + /am + /ciRu + /kAl

meaning small beautiful leg. I hope this will confirm that such a translation

has been known for a long time.

 

Shri Harikrishnan and Shri Nanmaaran have raised the issue that if the

expression refers to "leg", the correct expression should have been /cinaJ/ciru

kAl. I do think that that is a valid point of view, but Shri /ANTAL must have

considered it and rejected it for a reason somewhat along the following lines:

 

Let us look at the rhymes: They are /ciRRam, /poRRA, /peRRam, /kuRRE, /iRRai,

/eRRaikkum /uRROmE, and /maRRai.

 

Let us try replacements:

 

/cinnaJ, /ponn(am), /????, /kunRi, /inRu, /enRu, /unRan or /untan, and /mannum.

 

There are other variations that are available. But the word /peRRam seems to be

unique. And that was the point I wished to make, when I wrote my original

translation of the /pAcuram for celebrating /krushnA/jayanti.

 

It seems to me that /ANTAL put all her literary weight on that expression

/peRRam and opted for variations like /ciRRam and /iRRai etc.

 

What is the significance of this word /peRRam in simple terms? It is simply

this: We are children and you are our parent. Just as a cowherd cannot

subcontract the cows to others you also as parent cannot forego your

responsibility for taking care of us. In return we will do what children do --

small services giving a hand here and there. And this we want in this birth and

in the 7 squared births to come. We love you, daddy!

 

It also seems that /ANTAl seems to have meant these songs for training chidren.

That seems to be her aim for the series with this one ending with that message.

That mission will be consistent with her father's mission which earned him a

/kiZi. /A /kiZi (fabric) is similar to what we call today /ponn/ATai pOrttal.

You honor a great soul or one who has achieved a great feat publicly with

putting a /kiZi on him or her. That is the modern practice of /ponn/ATai pORttal

is a continuation of that /kiZi ceremony. You may also give cash along with the

/ponn/ATai. So money bag is part of it.

 

Shri /ANTAL and her father probably considered it their duty to train children

in the ways of /perumAL and this 29th song seems to confirm that the

/tirup/pAvai series is meant to be sung by children more than adults. Of course,

adults have to sing them along with the children as a teaching technique.

 

I will write more on this in my next postings.

 

Again thanks for your references and comments. Thanks also to Shri Sadagopan for

Shri /periyAZvAr's /pAcuram 245. It is a beautiful piece.

 

/nalan/tarum collai nAn kaNTu/koNtEn; nArAyaNA ennum nAmam.

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

Dear BhAgavatas,

 

I do not believe that Perukkaranai Swami's interpretation

is that old. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that

his svApadesam was done only in recent times. Also, can

anyone check on his vyakhyanam to see if this was only

an additional anubhavam proposed by him other than the

traditional meaning, or did he present this as the

meaning of the pasuram itself?

 

The attempt at showing that the ethugai (second part of

the first word rhyming) will not work if chinnam is used,

is twisted logic. Because, it assumes that kAl has been

used as leg, then changes the first word to chinnam and

shows that it does not work well. That is not acceptable

as the original word used is chiRRam and if kAlE is

the early dawn then there is no further issue.

 

Secondly, there is an additional attempt to prove one's

theory by assuming that peRRam is the key word that

Andal chose and therefore chiRRam was forced when

chinnam was preferred. There is no evidence to prove

that this is the case. In fact one has to believe that

these verses are revealed in divine passion and not

written down by selecting key words and finding

matching words for the same.

 

Finally, I don't believe that Andal and Periyazhvar

had only children in mind for these verses. Not unless

one takes it that we are all children.

 

It is a good thing to enjoy a bhagavat anubhavam as

it comes to one's mind as an addition to previous

vyakhyanams. But to start changing the entire context

of the pasuram, the direct meanings of the words,

ignore purvacharya's comments on the same, as well

as rewrite known history (correlating the kizhi

event with Thiruppavai, etc.) just to fit it to

one's anubhavam seems highly farfetched to me.

 

adiyEn

TCA Venkatesan

 

--- Visu9 wrote:

> /Om namO nArAyaNAya ||

>

> /anpuLLa Shri Vasudevan:

>

> Thanks for the refernce to Shri /perukaraNai chakravarthy

> achArya Swami's translation of the expression

> /ciRRaJ/ciru kAl as /ciRu + /am + /ciRu + /kAl meaning

> small beautiful leg. I hope this will confirm that such a

> translation has been known for a long time.

>

> Shri Harikrishnan and Shri Nanmaaran have raised the

> issue that if the expression refers to "leg", the correct

> expression should have been /cinaJ/ciru kAl. I do think

> that that is a valid point of view, but Shri /ANTAL must

> have considered it and rejected it for a reason somewhat

> along the following lines:

>

> Let us look at the rhymes: They are /ciRRam, /poRRA,

> /peRRam, /kuRRE, /iRRai, /eRRaikkum /uRROmE, and /maRRai.

>

>

> Let us try replacements:

>

> /cinnaJ, /ponn(am), /????, /kunRi, /inRu, /enRu, /unRan

> or /untan, and /mannum.

 

 

 

 

 

New DSL Internet Access from SBC &

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Namaskarams.

 

I to the belief that Andal was referring to

brahma muhurtham. But it is perfectly fine to have

more decorative commentaries/interpretations.

 

There used to be controversy about the stanza

'theekuralai senrothom". Some advaita acharya's were

interpreting it as 'thirukural' which was objected by

our acharyas. To them it just means improper speech

with bad intentions arising due to the tamas. While I

believe it has nothing to do with THirukural - why

they say theekuralai chendru othom?

This looks like you got to a place to study or chant

if literal meaning is taken. One can also think

(though it is probably Gayatri mantra which women are

not supposed to chant - because it is brief and it can

refer to Sun god who is the form of Fire (Thee). Andal

is telling seyyathana seyyom and this can add validity

to what I am thinking). I can be completely wrong

however as I am no where near schloarship or spiritual

understanding.

 

Andal thiruvadigale saranam.

 

warm regards,

Balaji S.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

Let us not try to force our thought into the pasurams like this. Enough

discussions and points were given and still let us not attempt to somehow divert

meanings..(valinthu poruL kollaamal irukka vEndukirEn..).She was not a amateur

poet to put wrong words and allow us to modify later.

Please note there is no one unwanted word put and no one wanted word missed out

in the pasurams. That is why even the great manavaaLa maamuni has sung in praise

of her as

anjukudikoru santhathiyaay, aazhwaar thancheyalai vinji nirkum thanmaiyalaai,

pinjil pazhuthaaLai, aandaaLai bakthiyudan naaLum vazhuthaai manamE magizhnthu..

Let us leave our EGO aside and try to see the elixir of aandaaL's pasurams..

Regards,

Nanmaaran

 

Visu9 wrote:/Om namO nArAyaNAya ||

> Shri Harikrishnan and Shri Nanmaaran have raised the issue that if the

> expression refers to "leg", the correct expression should have

> been /cinaJ/ciru kAl. I do think that that is a valid point of view, but

> Shri /ANTAL must have considered it and rejected it for a reason somewhat

> along the following lines:

> Let us look at the rhymes: They >

> are /ciRRam, /poRRA, /peRRam, /kuRRE, /iRRai, /eRRaikkum /uRROmE,

> and /maRRai.

> Let us try replacements:

> /cinnaJ, /ponn(am), /????, /kunRi, /inRu, /enRu, /unRan or /untan, and

/mannum.

> There are other variations that are available. But the word /peRRam seems to

> be unique. And that was the point I wished to make, when I wrote my original

> translation of the /pAcuram for celebrating /krushnA/jayanti.

> It seems to me that /ANTAL put all her literary weight on that

> expression /peRRam and opted for variations like /ciRRam and /iRRai etc.

[...]

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Vasudevan,

 

I can understand your feelings. I endorse your views. Still, I would very

humbly state that there was a suggestion that the coinage 'chitram siru kaalE'

was necessitated because the 'ethukai' demanded it. (I have lost track of who

said that.) As a person who has been writing poetry in Tamil for more than 30

years now, I know that no poet would regard this as a compliment. And I also

know that the person who said so was not aware of this fact.

 

In fact such an argument would show the poet in a poor light - he or she is not

in complete control and has to change his/her expressions to suit the

requirements of rules of prosody. Such a poet would be seen as 'inexperienced'.

For a poet of the stature of Andal, the right words would stand in queue,

begging the Poet to make use of them. This is why Sri Nanmaran states Andal is

not an 'amature'. (Though I have not even seen Sri Nanmaran, I am able to

understand his stream of thoughts because any person who has gone through the

rigours of writing can see *this* point.) I for one would not consider such an

explanation as a compliment at all and would feel slighted. And what of Andal!

When speaking of a divine poet like Andal, it is absolutely necessary that we

desist from putting forth such remarks. Once again I wish to state here that

the person who had given that explanation would not have been aware of this

angle; as otherwise, who would knowingly attempt to say such things that do not

add to the repute of the Poet.

 

My intention (I presume Sri Nanmaran would also endorse this) is not to hurt the

feelings of anyone. I am just sharing from the least little grain of knowledge

that came my way. Kindly forgive me if I have hurt anyone for any reason

whatsoever.

 

Regards,

 

Sincerly,

Hari Krishnan

 

 

-

"M.G.Vasudevan" <mgv

<bhakti-list>

Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:13 PM

RE: /cinnaJ/ciRu kAlE: Shri Harikrishnan's and Shri Vasudevan's

comments

 

 

| Dear sri vaishnava perunthagaiyeer,

|

| When sri hari krishnan and sri nanmaran has pointed these grammar points

| they are good points for me to learn, for, as I said earlier, I am not good

| at tamil grammar.

|

| It is seen that suddenly Sri nanmaran wants to give a list of things of "do

| not do".

|

| I am pained very much.

|

|

| Dhasan

|

| Vasudevan m.g.

|

|