Idol worship and Vedas???

[Guest guest]

SrimathE RangaRamanuja Mahadesikaya Nama:

 

SrI:

 

AdiyEn's friend, who belongs to the Arya Samaj argues

that there is no mention of Idol worship in Vedas. Is

that so?

 

 

AdiyEn,

PadhukadAsan

AravindalOchanadAsAnudAsan.

[Guest guest]

Swamin ,

Adiyen is a mandah buddi , but one doubt that comes to

my mind , dthat i would like to pose to your friend is

"Do the Vedas say NOT to worship idols?"

 

Please clarify,

 

Dasan

--- Aravind Gopalan <balaji_gop wrote:

> SrimathE RangaRamanuja Mahadesikaya Nama:

>

> SrI:

>

> AdiyEn's friend, who belongs to the Arya Samaj

> argues

> that there is no mention of Idol worship in Vedas.

> Is

> that so?

>

>

> AdiyEn,

> PadhukadAsan

> AravindalOchanadAsAnudAsan.

[Guest guest]

No body in the right mind worships idols - What is worshiped is the

ideal behind the idols. When we salute a piece of cloth with colors

pained on it, and chant National Anthem, we are saluting the nation

that is symbolized by the flag. It is not the piece of cloth that we

are saluting. When Lord is all pervading, evey form is His form and

any form can be his symbol for those who have the right vision of the

Lord. What is worshpped is Him not the symbol per sec. In any puja,

we do aavaahanam and once we invite the great Lord and we offer

everthinig that makes his stay comfortable - paaniiyam, aasanam,

aarghyam, vastram and naivedyam, madhye madhye paaniiyam to drink,

taambuulam and after the puuja is over visargam - saying bye bye. If

we do all this when we invite to some chief politician coming to the

town, with how much care and devotion one has to do when we invite

the Lord of the entire universe.

 

It is unfortunate Arya Samaj or Brahma samaaj have not understood the

significance of what Idol worship means. I am sure Dayananda

Saraswati who started this meaningless samaj, must have had some

reverence to his parents. Was he not a idol worshiper when he was

respecting the photos of his parents. When simple piece of painted

paper invokes so much love and respect, idol consecreted with due

pratishhTa should invoke reverse to that great Lord that is

symbolized in that idol. Vedas teache us how to do proper worship.

But what is needed is Bhakti - devotion to the Lord. Without that

Bhakti, it becomes some mechanical exercise.

 

Hari OM1

Sadananda

 

[ I think Sri Sadananda's explanation differs significantly

from the Pancaratra and Sri Vaishnava idea of the arcAvatAra.

It is a misreading of our religious practice so say that the

Pancaratra concept of the arca mUrti, denoted as "idol" for

the sake of writing in English, is merely an "ideal" or "symbol",

or a means of concentration, as is so often declared by

modern interpreters. No doubt the rejection of idol worship by

the Arya and Brahmo Samaj is also a modern development, a reaction

to outside criticism and internal hypocrisy in the wider Indian

context; however neo-Vedantins such as Swami Vivekananda and

Swami Chinmayananda who categorically pushed the arca mUrti into

the realm of mere symobology have also erred and unfortunately

did a great disservice to the ideas and concepts implicit in this

form of religious devotion.

 

To both lay and scholarly Sri Vaishnavas, the arca or idol

is indistinguishable from God. God manifests Himself or

Herself as the temple image to grace those who worship the

image in the most convenient way possible. It reflects the

supreme desire of God to be accessible to His devotees that

makes the idol at one with the highest principle of Godhead.

To borrow terminology from Western religious tradition, one

can say that the very stuff of the idol is transsubstantiated

so that seeing the idol as a mere symbol, mere stone, or

mere metal is considered a grave sin.

 

There is a difference between worship of symbols, denoted in

Vedanta as 'pratIka', and worship of a manifestation of God.

The former are temporary conveniences for the sake of meditation.

Commandments such as "worship the mind as the Supreme", "worship

the life breath as Supreme", "worship desire as the Supreme",

etc., are pedagogical techniques described in Upanishads to take the

student slowly but surely to the eventual meditation on the Supreme

Itself.

 

Temple and home-based image worship, however, is very different.

The Pancaratra Agamas and other scripturs that prescribe the

use such worship specifically state that image is a manifestation

of God. In this sense, the image itself literally *is* God; this

is what lends meaning to the term "arca-avatara",

an _incarnation_ of God in the form of an idol. (This is a concept

that even thinkers outside the Pancaratra school have accepted

wholeheartedly. Sri Sankaracharya writes several times in his

Brahma Sutra Bhashya, "yathA sAlagrAme hariH", "sAlagrama iva vishNoH",

"yathA sAlagrAme vishNuH sannihitaH, tadvat".) Learned members

who are well versed in Sri Vachana Bhushana and other works of

our acharyas are invited to wax eloquently about the greatness

of the idea behind the arcAvatAra to illustrate these concepts further.

 

Because of Western and Semitic criticism, we as middle class, English

speaking moderners have become scared of the term "idol" and afraid of

the grand concept of arcAvatAra and idol worship. Such fear is absent

in followers of our religion who are blissfully unaware of such

criticism. One can only look at the average, common, non-English

educated worshipper at any of the Vishnu and Siva temples in South

India. To a person such as this who has worshipped at, say the

shrine of Lord Ranganatha in Srirangam, a question such as "Have you

seen God?" that has made at least one neo-Vedantin famous would seem

patently absurd.

-- Moderator ]

[Guest guest]

Dear Aravind,

This is my view on this topic for your friend...

Vedas are like Michael Faraday's Research Papers where you will not find

references of Electric Fan, Grinder etc.. Those papers are nothing but thesis..

Idol Worship is the evolution from the theories of Vedas in order to take the

GOD (who is actually formless) to even common people. It is something like ICONS

in the windows screen which are not the Programs by itself but acts as tool to

bring the program. Same way idol is not GOD but we can understand GOD thru that.

That is why even our great acharyas like Ramanuja,Desikan and Manavaala Mamuni

have not refuted Idol worship (infact followed)even though they are not referred

in Vedas.

Regards,

Nanmaaran

 

[ Sri Ramanuja categorically denies that God is exclusively formless,

or that the form of God is a temporary manifestation. While God's

essence (divyAtma-svarUpa) is without form, God also eternally

manifests a divine form (divya-mangala-vigraha). Citing the ancient

author of the Vakya, Tankacharya, Sri Ramanuja concludes, "The

Vakya-kara himself has rejected the view that the form of God is

non-eternal." /tasya ca rUpasya anityatA-Adi vAkya-kAreNa

eva pratiSiddham/ (Vedarthasangraha). Sri Ramanuja follows with

several quotations and arguments in favor of the eternality of

the divine form, also quoting the revered Dramidacharya, an ancient

teacher of unquestioned authority in the system of Vedanta.

-- Moderator ]

[Guest guest]

GOd is truly present in the vigrahas for the purpose

of helping common people like us. We may not have the

ability to meditate him as omnipresent or as

antaryamin. FOr bhakthi margam archai is very useful

and essential as we really get the reverence. For

people with out faith, it is their karma and they will

also realize in another birth. The being beyond

prakrithi appears in stones and that is the elimai of

bhagwan - what else to say. God with form is so

beautiful and merciful. Alwars have sung enough to

explain their anubhavam. When God is meditated as

formless and attributeless what bhavam one gets? As

form of light ? that is again the form inspired by

Sun. Man doesn't have the capacity to realize God -

knowing this god is ever present in divya kalyana

roopam.

 

warm regards,

Balaji S.

[Guest guest]

-

"Pradeep Janakiraman" <pradeepjanakiraman

<bhakti-list>

> At a more unified theory level, non-controversial people would say

> that "Nirgunam" and "Sagunam" are like the 2-sides of a paper. Just

> as the paper definitely has 2-sides and appears based on which side

> and how we look at it, Lord also is both "Nirgunam" (wihtout Rajas,

> and Tamas gunas) and yet "Sagunam" posessing Ananta-Kalyaana-Gunams.

 

The only cavaet is, the very basis of "nirvishEshatvam" and the nirguna

bhavam of the brahman is baseless. This is against the vedAs. The Brahman is

full of Kalyana Gunams. This has been established by the entire prasthAna

traya. With the moderator's note, we can discuss the pro-s and con-s of this

issue at length.

 

The basis for divya-mangala-vigraham has been established in the Kalpa

Sutrams which are an inseprable component of the VedAs. It is interesting to

note that Dayananda Saraswathi has not at all commented on this all

important component. The Arya Samaj movement was a reaction against the

Victorian mindset of those ages.

 

The same issue of Idol worship was discussed in this list sometime back. You

can go through the following links:

 

1.) http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/may2002/0022.html

2.) http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/may2002/0025.html

3.) http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/may2002/0036.html

4.) http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/may2002/0041.html

 

I thank Dr Ute Huesken of Germany whose scholarship on the agamAs and the

kalpa sutrAs is highly lauable.

 

The pAncharAtra Agama is a EkAyana Shaka. It *has* to be treated on pAr with

the vedAs. And so is the VaikhAnasa Agama, about which we had a very good

discussion a few days back.

 

-Regards,

 

Malolan Cadambi

[Guest guest]

/OM namO nArAyaNAya |

 

/namastE to all. Adding a remark to Swami Sadanandaji's posting.

 

When one considers a book as sacred, it is idol worship. Consider an example: If

I burn my prayer book, a Muslim or a Christian will not be upset. If I burn the

/kurAn or the Bible, it will be another story. This is just an example to make

the idea of sacredness understandable.

 

Idol worship imbues an idol with the content of the prayer book. May be a

particular part for me on a given day, another part on another day and for

another person etc. The person reading the /kurAn or the Bible does the same ---

a portion at a time.

 

If one is against idol worship, he or she cannot have a prayer book or anything

that memorializes the prayer.

 

/nalan/tarum collai nAn kaNtu/koNtEn; nArAyaNA ennum nAmam.

 

/vantanam.

 

Visu

[Guest guest]

Namo Narayana,

 

There have been too many mails going back and forth on

idol worship.

I do have some information gathered from Sri Krishna

Premi's discourses. I will compile the information and

post it in the next two days. It will clear some of

our basic doubts. The divinity of the Archavataram

will also be remain unquestioned. I am sure most of us

in the group pose these questions more out of the

intention of convincing others who pose these

questions to us.

 

I'll try my best to put the discourse into meaningful

words.

 

Ramanuja dasi

 

 

--- Visu9 wrote:

> /OM namO nArAyaNAya |

>

> /namastE to all. Adding a remark to Swami

> Sadanandaji's posting.

>

> When one considers a book as sacred, it is idol

> worship. Consider an example: If I burn my prayer

> book, a Muslim or a Christian will not be upset. If

> I burn the /kurAn or the Bible, it will be another

> story. This is just an example to make the idea of

> sacredness understandable.

>

> Idol worship imbues an idol with the content of the

> prayer book. May be a particular part for me on a

> given day, another part on another day and for

> another person etc. The person reading the /kurAn or

> the Bible does the same --- a portion at a time.

>

> If one is against idol worship, he or she cannot

> have a prayer book or anything that memorializes the

> prayer.

>

> /nalan/tarum collai nAn kaNtu/koNtEn; nArAyaNA ennum

> nAmam.

>

> /vantanam.

>

> Visu

>

>

>

---