Few questions

[Guest guest]

Dear Pradeep

 

While I dont want to comment on your analogy but still would like and

love to add few rejoinders .. please read further...

> At a more unified theory level, non-controversial people would say

> that "Nirgunam" and "Sagunam" are like the 2-sides of a paper.

_______________

 

--- I would like to know what the contreversy is all about..and who the

controversial

and non controversial people are ???.. -

 

______________________________\

_____

 

> Just as the paper definitely has 2-sides and appears based on which >

> side and how we look at it, Lord also is both "Nirgunam" (wihtout

> Rajas,and Tamas gunas) and yet "Sagunam" posessing

Ananta-Kalyaana-Gunams. >

_____-

 

There are some fallacies (as I see) in the above ....

 

So I shall put them as questions and intend to start off another thread....

 

1) What do the terms Nirgunam and Sagunam exactly Mean??

2) Are they antonyms??

3) As according to the statement above does it mean that the absence of

Rajas and Tamas gunas alone is nirgunam??

4) So what about Sathva Guna?? Why the same hasnt been

included(listed).. ??

5) If Satva Guna is not included does it mean presence of (Sudha) satvam

is Nirgunam??

6) If it is a typo and so you feel that Satva guna must have been

included(listed).. can we take that absence of such gunas themselves

as a way to to distinguish between a Saguna entity and Nirguna entity??

7) If so dont you feel absence of "Gunams" itself a Gunam for a

Nirguna entity??

 

_________

> (the last paragraph is not my personal view, but I have heard the

> above being said by quite a few pravachana-kartaas)

>

> Radhe Krishna

>

> -- Pradeep

 

------- IMHO the content and saaraamsam of pravachanams by many

pravachana karthas are heavily dependednt on time place and audience.

you may see at times the same pravachana kartha would be establishing

different view (s) from one place to the other.

 

regards

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

Dear Shri Vaishnavas,

 

Dear Moderator, If this mail is of no use, please feel free to disregard the

same.

 

I was going through the first 100 messages in this list and was going

through the excellent mails that Shri Mani, Shri Sudarshan Iyengar and Shri

Krishna Kalale had written in reply to Shri Vidhyashankar's mails. This

subject was discussed in the same i.e the nirguna and satguna. I was just

thinking a lot on the same and came up with few thoughts which I would like

to share and would request the respected Shri Vaishnavas to validate.

 

Premise - Nirguna - No Guna & Saguna - Innumerous Gunas.

 

The approach I am going to take is probably math based. Hope I am not

confusing. I put forth the same argument to couple of my friends too. Please

be patient to read and read it carefully.

 

Let us assume that a Person P says that he MAY have some money in his house

and asks a person V to go and find out how much he has. V comes back and

says that he was not able to count the money in P's house.

 

Based on V's reply, if we were asked a question that how much money does P

have. We may have two answers.

1. P has so much money that V was not able to count. - Note: This is the

limitation of V i.e P has so much money but V is not able to count.

2. P has no money and hence V was not able to count (you can't count

something that is not there). Here, limitation is applied on P i.e P has no

money and hence V is not able to count.

 

So there is an ambiguity i.e we cannot decide anything based on this.

 

Assume that P is the paramatma and V is the veda. We are the jivatmas trying

to interpret the vedas. Vedas say that paramatma's gunams are not countable.

Should we take it as Nirguna or Saguna?

In this case, we can make a decision. How?

Let us examine the above two cases again with P as the paramatma and V as

the vedas.

Case 1: Paramatma has so many gunas(Saguna) that the Vedas are not able to

count - limitation of vedas.

Case 2: Paramatma has no gunas(Nirguna) and hence Vedas are not able to

count - limitation of the paramatma.

 

Now, the decision is in our hands. Which one would we choose? Should we say

paramatma is saguna i.e with all the kalyana gunas and accept that it is our

limitation that we are not able to count it? Or Should we apply the

limitation to the paramatma, who is called as the sarva-vyapi,

sarva-shakthan etc and say he has no guna?

 

Option 1(saguna) seems logical to most of us and that is what is declared by

Shri Ramanuja. While advaitins generally argue that the brahmam has no gunas

based on the vedic scripts, Shri Ramanujar argues that it should interpreted

as Saguna which makes more sense.

 

Shri Ramanujar has proved that, purely based on LOGIC, that the vedic

scriptures should mean only SAGUNA(akila heya pratyanika kalyanaika dhanaha)

and not NIRGUNA. He doesn't need any special explanation at all for this. No

wonder he is the Adiseshan by himself that he could come up with such a

fantastic explanation of vedic scripts (while our modern mathematics still

struggle with the concept of Zero and Infinity).

 

He claims that whenever the vedas say the paramatma is nirguna, in that

context, it should be interpreted that paramatman is beyond the three gunas

rajas, thamas and satvam. And this is applicable only in this context. At

all other places, it has been proved that paramatman has Saguna (I don't

have the knowledge to quote all those places and I apologize for the same).

 

 

I hope this wasn't a stupid explanation. My apologies in case of mistakes

and if I had wasted any of your precious time!

 

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Lakshmi Narasimhan.

 

----

 

bhakti-list

Tuesday, November 12, 2002 19:38:07

bhakti-list

Few questions

 

Dear Pradeep

 

While I dont want to comment on your analogy but still would like and

love to add few rejoinders .. please read further...

> At a more unified theory level, non-controversial people would say

> that "Nirgunam" and "Sagunam" are like the 2-sides of a paper.

_______________

 

--- I would like to know what the contreversy is all about..and who the

controversial

and non controversial people are ???.. -

 

___________________________

_______

 

> Just as the paper definitely has 2-sides and appears based on which >

> side and how we look at it, Lord also is both "Nirgunam" (wihtout

> Rajas,and Tamas gunas) and yet "Sagunam" posessing

Ananta-Kalyaana-Gunams. >

_____-

 

There are some fallacies (as I see) in the above ....

 

So I shall put them as questions and intend to start off another thread....

 

1) What do the terms Nirgunam and Sagunam exactly Mean??

2) Are they antonyms??

3) As according to the statement above does it mean that the absence of

Rajas and Tamas gunas alone is nirgunam??

4) So what about Sathva Guna?? Why the same hasnt been

included(listed).. ??

5) If Satva Guna is not included does it mean presence of (Sudha) satvam

is Nirgunam??

6) If it is a typo and so you feel that Satva guna must have been

included(listed).. can we take that absence of such gunas themselves

as a way to to distinguish between a Saguna entity and Nirguna entity??

7) If so dont you feel absence of "Gunams" itself a Gunam for a

Nirguna entity??

 

_________

> (the last paragraph is not my personal view, but I have heard the

> above being said by quite a few pravachana-kartaas)

>

> Radhe Krishna

>

> -- Pradeep

 

------- IMHO the content and saaraamsam of pravachanams by many

pravachana karthas are heavily dependednt on time place and audience.

you may see at times the same pravachana kartha would be establishing

different view (s) from one place to the other.

 

regards

Venkat

 

 

 

-----------------------------

- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -

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[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

Dear SrIman Raghavan: I will be happy to

join with other bhakthAs to answer your questions .

Here is my input.

 

AshtAnga VimAnam is the name of the VimAnam

for the PerumAL at ThirukkUdal (Madhurai

Koodalazhakar), who presented Himself before

PeriyAzhwAr to recieve the MangaLAsAsanam of

ThiruppallANDu.

 

SrI Sowmya NaarAyaNan of ThirukkOshtiyUr has

His vimAnam known as AshtAnga VimAnam. The links

of this dhivya dEsam to AchArya RaamAnuja and our sampradhAyam

is well recorded. The other dhivya dEsam that we can not

see with our human eyes is Parama Padham (SadhA pasyanthi

Sooraya:). That dhivya desam also has AshtAnga VimAnam.

 

AshtAnga VimAnam literally means ashta angams ,

the VimAnam with 8 Parts or limbs or features . The number 8 has

special significance in our darsanam (e.g) AshtAkshari

or Moola mantram , AshtAnga yOgam . The Lord inside is

AshtAkshari PrathibhAdhya SrIman NaarAyaNan. The VimAnam at

ThiruvAli dhivya desam is indeed known (named) as

AshtAkshara VimAnam. PraNavam is an integral part

of Moola Manthram . Inview of its centrality,

the VimAnam at SrIrangam is revered as PranavAkruthi

VimAnam ( of the form of PraNavam) .

 

Usually the names of the VimAnams have connections to

the consecrated Lord presiding at that Dhivya dEsam.

Examples are at Thirukkadigai ( ShOLingar) ,

the presiding Lord is Narasimhan . hence the VimAnam

is endearingly recognized as " Simha GhOshtAkruthi

VimAnam or the sound embodiment of Lord Narasimhan's

Garjanai. At the AhObila Dhivya dEsam , the VimAnam

is Guhai VimAnam . The Lord's residence inside as

antharyAmi Brahman is perhaps indicated in this hilly

dhivya desam.There are other explanations as well

that one can think of.

 

There may be instances , where the same name will

be associated with the VimAnams of two different

Dhivya dEsams: Example is provided by Kaanchi

PeraruLALan ThirukkaditthAnam Adhbhutha NaarAyaNan's

vimAnam . Both are revered as PuNyakOti VimAnam.

Vaamana VimAnam is the name chosen for both the

VimAnams at ThirukkaLvanUr and ThirukkAragam

dhivya desams.Other examples are KalyANa VimAnams

at Thiruvidventhai and UrayUr(ThirukkOzhi) dhivya

desams.SrIvaramangai (VaanamAmalai )and SiRuppuliyUr

dhivya desams have the VimAnams with the same name,

Nandha Vardhana VimAnam.The name Kanaka VimAnam

is shared by more than one dhivya desam.Ditto

for SrIkara VimAnam . I would leave it to BhakthAs

to find out which dhivya desams have this VimAnam.

Ditto for Soundharya VimAnam and VijayakOti VimAnam.

 

ThirukkAvaLampAdi dhivya desa vimAnam is

worshipped as SvayambhU or self-manifested vimAnam.

 

For Swamy NammAzhwAr , Govindha Naamam (KaNNan)is very

dear. hence the name for the VimAnam at AzhwAr's birth place

is named "Govindha VimAnam ".

 

Some times sacred flowers dear to ThAyAr are

associated with the names of Dhivya desa VimAnam :

KamalAkruthi VimAnam ( ThirukkaNDiyUr), Uthpala

VimAnam ( ThirukkaNNangudi) , Kumudha VimAnam

( Thiruttholaivilimangalam), MandhAra VimAnam

( Thirunandhipura ViNnagaram).

 

Vedic links are given to some VimAnams >

I will leave it to you to identify which

dhivya desams ahve those Vedic links:

Purushasooktha VimAnam , Veda VimAnam ,

vedasAra VimAnam (Two dhivya desams),

PraNava VimAnam .

 

The VimAnam for my Kula dhaivam (ThiruviNnagarappan)

is Unalloyed bliss vimAnam ( SuddhAnandha VimAnam ) and that

of His younger brother on top of the Seven hills is

Aanandha Nilaya VimAnam. You can hear the resonances.

 

Finally, Thirupparamapadham ( TirunAdu) of

Vaikunta Naathan has the VimAnam known as

AnanathAnga VimAnam. Anantha is infinite ,

limitless . That VimAnam is infinite in its

auspicious Sudhda sathvA aspects.

 

I will address your other questions on srushti

(Vyashti, Samashti) and Sub-vyUhams in the next note .

The srishti concepts are complex and are covered by

Upanishads. The best route is to access a sdadAachAryan

and perform KaalakshEpam under their sacred feet.

The more one writes, the more questions will arise and

it may not be easy to tacle in an imperfect medium as

Internet.

 

With best Wishes for continuing your inquiries,

V.Sadagopan

 

At 03:28 PM 4/3/03 +0530, you wrote:

>"Lakshminatha samarambham Nada yamuna madyamam

>asmadhaachaarya paryantham vande guruparamparam"

>

>Dear Bhakthas,

>

>I have few interesting(May be) questions to ask.

>What is meant by Ashtanga Vimanam. What are other types of Vimanams?

>What is Vyashti and Samashti Srushti?

>What are sub divisions in the four Vyuha Murthys - VaasudEva , SamkarshNa ,

>PradhyumnA and Aniruddha?

>

>Could any one explain these to all who read the mail??

>

>Narasimha Raghavan