Andal's greatness - Smt Vathsala Srinivasan's Question

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

Dear BhAgavatas,

 

There is not one or two things that can be said to show

Andal's greatness. One can talk about it for a long time

and still will not be done.

 

AdiyEn will take up just a couple of things to show it.

 

Manavala Mamunigal shows why Andal is so great in another

pasuram of Upadesaraththinamalai itself. In it Swami

says "kunRAtha vAzhvAna vaikuntha vAn bOganthannai

igazhnthu, emakkAkavanRO ingu ANdAl avathariththAL".

She descended from Sri Vaikunta leaving Him and the

bhOgyam of being with Him for our sake. It is not

amazing that He would occasionally descend and walk

amongst us to save us. Greater than that is that She

would leave Him and be born in this world and live as

one of us and show us the path to reach Him.

 

Coming to the question of directly comparing to Azhvars,

our acharyas have done this for us. Amongst the Azhvars

Nammazhvar and Thirumangai Azhvar are very unique and

great. They both take on Nayika bhAvam as Parangusa

Nayaki and Parakala Nayaki in many of their pasurams

and express their yearning for the Lord. While they

had to take on nAyika bhAvam, Andal did not have to

do any such thing. Nayika bhAvam came naturally to her.

 

She could have stopped at just that. But her greatness

lies in the fact that she took on an even greater bhAvam

- that of the gOpikas. The greatness of the gOpikas has

been established by our acharyas in many places, so

adiyEn will not go into that in this post. AdiyEn will

simply point that the fact that Andal took on this role

alone is sufficient proof of their greatness.

 

By the way, it is the way of acharyas to say that this

Azhvar or Acharya or avatar of the Lord is the greatest

and so on. This does not mean that the other

azhvars/acharyas/avatars are lower. Because the same

acharya would turn around and praise the greatness of

another azhvar/acharya/avatar and so on. One has to take

the nahi nindA nyAya in these cases.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

 

--- Vathsala Srinivasan <vathsala_srinivasan2002

wrote:

> Pranams to all,

>

> I was going thru the Recent Messages and found an

> interesting discussion for thirupavai pasuram(chirram

> chirukale). In one of the postings, one Mr Nanmaaran has

> referred about manavala mamuni's verse about andal as

> "azhwarkaL than cheyalai vinji nirkum thanmaiyinaal"..Can

> anyone explain about how andal excelled over other alwars

> as referred by manavala mamuni?

>

> With Regards,

>

> Vathsala.

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Venkatesan,

I beg to differ from your view..

1. While they had to take on nAyika bhAvam, Andal did not have to

do any such thing. Nayika bhAvam came naturally to her...

How can a Female having nayika (Female)baava superior to born Male adopting

nayika baava? Infact we appreciate male actor performing female character than

female actor doing the same in generic terms.. With your point " stree praayam

itharam jagat" will become untrue..

2. But her greatness lies in the fact that she took on an even greater bhAvam

that of the gOpikas.

 

Nammaalwar has sung "ennai thaanaaki ennaal thannai" in thiruvaaymozhi 7th

pathu- 9th thiruvaaymozhi..

 

And Periaalwar has sung in baavaa of Mother and Father.

 

Are these baavaas inferior to GOPIKAS? Cannot be.

 

So "aazhwar than cheyalai vinji niRkum thanmai" can't be these.

 

Kindly comment and clarify.

Regards,

Nanmaaran

TCA Venkatesan <vtca wrote:Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

Dear BhAgavatas,

 

There is not one or two things that can be said to show

Andal's greatness. One can talk about it for a long time

and still will not be done.

 

AdiyEn will take up just a couple of things to show it.

 

Manavala Mamunigal shows why Andal is so great in another

pasuram of Upadesaraththinamalai itself. In it Swami

says "kunRAtha vAzhvAna vaikuntha vAn bOganthannai

igazhnthu, emakkAkavanRO ingu ANdAl avathariththAL".

She descended from Sri Vaikunta leaving Him and the

bhOgyam of being with Him for our sake. It is not

amazing that He would occasionally descend and walk

amongst us to save us. Greater than that is that She

would leave Him and be born in this world and live as

one of us and show us the path to reach Him.

 

Coming to the question of directly comparing to Azhvars,

our acharyas have done this for us. Amongst the Azhvars

Nammazhvar and Thirumangai Azhvar are very unique and

great. They both take on Nayika bhAvam as Parangusa

Nayaki and Parakala Nayaki in many of their pasurams

and express their yearning for the Lord. While they

had to take on nAyika bhAvam, Andal did not have to

do any such thing. Nayika bhAvam came naturally to her.

 

She could have stopped at just that. But her greatness

lies in the fact that she took on an even greater bhAvam

- that of the gOpikas. The greatness of the gOpikas has

been established by our acharyas in many places, so

adiyEn will not go into that in this post. AdiyEn will

simply point that the fact that Andal took on this role

alone is sufficient proof of their greatness.

 

By the way, it is the way of acharyas to say that this

Azhvar or Acharya or avatar of the Lord is the greatest

and so on. This does not mean that the other

azhvars/acharyas/avatars are lower. Because the same

acharya would turn around and praise the greatness of

another azhvar/acharya/avatar and so on. One has to take

the nahi nindA nyAya in these cases.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

 

--- Vathsala Srinivasan

wrote:

> Pranams to all,

>

> I was going thru the Recent Messages and found an

> interesting discussion for thirupavai pasuram(chirram

> chirukale). In one of the postings, one Mr Nanmaaran has

> referred about manavala mamuni's verse about andal as

> "azhwarkaL than cheyalai vinji nirkum thanmaiyinaal"..Can

> anyone explain about how andal excelled over other alwars

> as referred by manavala mamuni?

>

> With Regards,

>

> Vathsala.

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Nanmaaran,

 

These are not my views but that of our acharyas. Before

I note what our acharyas have said, I want to point out

again something I mentioned in the first post. Whenever

we praise one acharya or azhvar or a specific bhAvam of

theirs etc, we need to remember that we are using nahi

nindA nyAyam. That is, just because we say that it is

a great bhAvam or the acharya is unmatched and so on,

we are in no way putting down the other bhAvams or other

acharya/azhvars. This is the way of our acharyas.

 

For example, in the case of Andal they would say she is

great because nAyika bhAvam came naturally to her, but

then they would turn around and state the Nammazhvar is

great because he could assume the nAyika role. This is

just a way of celebrating each acharya/azhvar/avatar and

simply shows that they enjoyed every one of them to the

greatest extent possible.

 

Coming to your questions, I will state directly from our

acharyas.

 

Sri Periyavcaan Pillai starts 3000padi vyakhyanam for

Thiruppavai as follows: the difference between ordinary

men and Rishis is that of an atom and a mountain; the

difference between Rishis and Azhvars is the same; the

difference between Azhvars and Periyazhvar is the same;

the difference between Periyazhvar and Andal is the

same.

 

(Does this mean that Periyazhvar is lower than Andal? I

don't think any acharya will say that. Just that this

is the way Andal is praised. Periyazhvar gets similar

praise in other vyakhyanams.)

 

He then states: "purushan purushanaik kaNdu

snEhippathilunkAttil Sthree purushanaik kaNdu snEhikkai

paLLamadaiyAkaiyAlE".

 

4000padi says: "thAngkaLAna thanmai azhinthirukkas

seythE nAcciyArdasaiyAga anyApadEsaththALE pEsi

anubaviththArkaL. ivaL piRanthittAL ennumApOlE

anyApadEsaththALE anubhavikka vENdAthE... sthreethvaththai

udaiyavaLAyirukkum."

 

So, as you can see it is our acharyas that have praised

that her nayika bhAvam came naturally to her.

 

4000padi also says: "ivaLukku Or anyApadEsamuNdu.

athAkiRathu bhrAhmaNi idaicciyAgai. kulam tharum enRu

avanukku aNNiya kulamiRE kulamAvathu."

 

Again our acharyas praise the yadava kulam as the true

srivaishnava kulam.

 

Our acharyas state that Andal is great because she

received the knowledge from 11 azhvars being the

only child for all of them. They also state that she

received her beauty and qualities from the Lord

Himself while the pirAttis gave her their svarUpam

and svabhAvam (thus her bhAvam is natural to her

- "thamappanmAraip pOlE AkkanAna peNmaiyanRu

ivaLathu" - 4000padi).

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

 

--- Nanmaaran <nanmaaran wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Venkatesan,

> I beg to differ from your view..

> 1. While they had to take on nAyika bhAvam, Andal did not

> have to

> do any such thing. Nayika bhAvam came naturally to her...

> How can a Female having nayika (Female)baava superior to

> born Male adopting nayika baava? Infact we appreciate

> male actor performing female character than female actor

> doing the same in generic terms.. With your point " stree

> praayam itharam jagat" will become untrue..

> 2. But her greatness lies in the fact that she took on an

> even greater bhAvam

> that of the gOpikas.

>

> Nammaalwar has sung "ennai thaanaaki ennaal thannai" in

> thiruvaaymozhi 7th pathu- 9th thiruvaaymozhi..

>

> And Periaalwar has sung in baavaa of Mother and Father.

>

> Are these baavaas inferior to GOPIKAS? Cannot be.

>

> So "aazhwar than cheyalai vinji niRkum thanmai" can't be

> these.

>

> Kindly comment and clarify.

> Regards,

> Nanmaaran

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Venkatesan,

Thanks for your detailed reply. But i would like to know how "nahi nindhya

nyaayam" will get applied here as Shri Manavaala maamuni does not simply say

that "Andal is great" if the statement is like that, then we can apply nahi

nindhya and say that by that statement, he is not saying that others are not

great.

But he says specifically " She excels over other alwars" (aazhwarkaL than

cheyalai vinji niRkum thanmaiyaLaay) and we cannot apply nahi nindhya nyaayam

here as It was a clear statement about Andal very much keeping other azhwars in

mind.

And Natural nayika baavam theory also does not fit as "Excelling" attribute.

Gopika baavam also cannot be taken as "excelling one" over periyaazhvar's thaay

baavam and kulasekara azhwar's thanthai baavam.

I think we should investigate more on " by which act she excelled over others

alwars" Acharya like Manavaala Mamuni would not have said a statement just for

enjoyment and just to praise Andal.

Regards,

Nanmaaran.

 

 

 

 

TCA Venkatesan <vtca wrote:Dear Sri Nanmaaran,

 

These are not my views but that of our acharyas. Before

I note what our acharyas have said, I want to point out

again something I mentioned in the first post. Whenever

we praise one acharya or azhvar or a specific bhAvam of

theirs etc, we need to remember that we are using nahi

nindA nyAyam. That is, just because we say that it is

a great bhAvam or the acharya is unmatched and so on,

we are in no way putting down the other bhAvams or other

acharya/azhvars. This is the way of our acharyas.

 

For example, in the case of Andal they would say she is

great because nAyika bhAvam came naturally to her, but

then they would turn around and state the Nammazhvar is

great because he could assume the nAyika role. This is

just a way of celebrating each acharya/azhvar/avatar and

simply shows that they enjoyed every one of them to the

greatest extent possible.

 

Coming to your questions, I will state directly from our

acharyas.

 

Sri Periyavcaan Pillai starts 3000padi vyakhyanam for

Thiruppavai as follows: the difference between ordinary

men and Rishis is that of an atom and a mountain; the

difference between Rishis and Azhvars is the same; the

difference between Azhvars and Periyazhvar is the same;

the difference between Periyazhvar and Andal is the

same.

 

(Does this mean that Periyazhvar is lower than Andal? I

don't think any acharya will say that. Just that this

is the way Andal is praised. Periyazhvar gets similar

praise in other vyakhyanams.)

 

He then states: "purushan purushanaik kaNdu

snEhippathilunkAttil Sthree purushanaik kaNdu snEhikkai

paLLamadaiyAkaiyAlE".

 

4000padi says: "thAngkaLAna thanmai azhinthirukkas

seythE nAcciyArdasaiyAga anyApadEsaththALE pEsi

anubaviththArkaL. ivaL piRanthittAL ennumApOlE

anyApadEsaththALE anubhavikka vENdAthE... sthreethvaththai

udaiyavaLAyirukkum."

 

So, as you can see it is our acharyas that have praised

that her nayika bhAvam came naturally to her.

 

4000padi also says: "ivaLukku Or anyApadEsamuNdu.

athAkiRathu bhrAhmaNi idaicciyAgai. kulam tharum enRu

avanukku aNNiya kulamiRE kulamAvathu."

 

Again our acharyas praise the yadava kulam as the true

srivaishnava kulam.

 

Our acharyas state that Andal is great because she

received the knowledge from 11 azhvars being the

only child for all of them. They also state that she

received her beauty and qualities from the Lord

Himself while the pirAttis gave her their svarUpam

and svabhAvam (thus her bhAvam is natural to her

- "thamappanmAraip pOlE AkkanAna peNmaiyanRu

ivaLathu" - 4000padi).

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

 

--- Nanmaaran wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Venkatesan,

> I beg to differ from your view..

> 1. While they had to take on nAyika bhAvam, Andal did not

> have to

> do any such thing. Nayika bhAvam came naturally to her...

> How can a Female having nayika (Female)baava superior to

> born Male adopting nayika baava? Infact we appreciate

> male actor performing female character than female actor

> doing the same in generic terms.. With your point " stree

> praayam itharam jagat" will become untrue..

> 2. But her greatness lies in the fact that she took on an

> even greater bhAvam

> that of the gOpikas.

>

> Nammaalwar has sung "ennai thaanaaki ennaal thannai" in

> thiruvaaymozhi 7th pathu- 9th thiruvaaymozhi..

>

> And Periaalwar has sung in baavaa of Mother and Father.

>

> Are these baavaas inferior to GOPIKAS? Cannot be.

>

> So "aazhwar than cheyalai vinji niRkum thanmai" can't be

> these.

>

> Kindly comment and clarify.

> Regards,

> Nanmaaran

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

/Om namO nArAyanAya |

 

/namaskArams to all.

 

I think /SrI ANTAL is great because among all the /AzvArs, she is the only one

who cared enough for the future. Even her father's call to the people to join

/eGkaL kuZAm was not as far reaching as /tirup/pAvai.

 

/tirup/pAvai is /ANTAL's missionary work addressed to the children of all times.

By incorporating it as a drama to be played and replayed and calling little

girls to a life of commitment, ANTAL transcended time. It is because of

/tirup/pAvai that many people who are not formally /vaishnavites know her name

and work, and at least a few lines of some songs.

 

Thus /ANTAL is an artist also and her work appeals to children. It was designed

to be so. In her work psychology stands out as a tool.

 

I think /tiru/maGkai AZvAr and /periyAZvAr are also of the same orientation. But

/SrI ANTAL succeeds more because within the narrow domain available to her as a

woman, she conceived and implemented a human drama that is at once missionary

and practical. Judging her by the results, her output in terms of preservation

of values is far more than those of the men. That she could achieve this in

spite of the restrictions she was placed under is a tribute to her singular

dedication and imagination.

 

All other /AZvArs require maturity so that their reach to children is limited

without training.

 

/nalan/tarum collai nAn kaNTu koNtEn; nArAyanA ennum nAmam.

 

/vantanam.

 

Visu