Andal's greatness

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

 

Dear Sri Nanmaaran,

 

AdiyEn begs to differ on your first point. Nahi ninda

nyAyam applies even when a direct comparison is made.

For example, Mamnavala Mamunigal says that "uNdO

thiruvAymozhikku oppu?" This is a direct comparison

to all works written. However, shortly thereafter he

says "uNdO thiru-p-pallANdukku oppathOr kalai thAn?"

Again a direct comparison to other works. In both cases,

he says that no work can match this work. One can make

a case that each is unique and unmatched and therefore

both statements are ok. But, adiyEn thinks that it is

not the case here. I think Mamunigal is stating that

each is the greatest of all works. This kind of logic

might not work in the regular world but it is perfectly

acceptable in the Srivaishnava world. My understanding

is that nahi ninda nyAyam applies even when an acharya

says that he/she/it is greater than others; however, if

you differ, that is ok.

 

Coming to your other questions - these are the exact

points raised by acharyas in showing that Andal is

greater than the Azhvars.

 

As I mentioned before, Periyavaccan Pillai start out

by saying that Andal is far greater than other Azhvars.

(Andal to Periyazhvar and Periyazhvar to other Azhvars

is like mountain to atom in each case). Then he asks

why? And follows up with the following reasons:

1. Azhvars saw Him after He woke them up; Andal woke

Him up and explained her problem. 2. Just like Sri

Lakshmana, right from her birth she was submerged in

the bhagavat guNas 3. Unlike a man liking a man, it is

natural for a woman to like a man. 4. Her bhakti to

Him is greater than that of Azhvars.

 

2000padi starts with the same comparison as 3000padi.

The reasons given are: 1. She is the only child of the

10 azhvars and received their knowledge as stree

dhanam. 2. Azhvars got divine knowledge from Him while

she went and gave divine knowledge to Him (that is,

woke Him up and presented her case). 3. Andal (who

is attached to Periyazhvar) is like Madhurakavi Azhvar,

unlike other Azhvars who are like Sri Lakshmana and

Periyazhvar who is like Sri Bharatha. 4. Like Lakshmana,

she was attached to Him right from birth.

 

4000padi presents the following reasons: 1. From her

ten fathers (Azhvars), she received knowledge as stree

dhanam. 2. Azhvars destroyed their natural bhAvam and

took on a stree bhAvam while she had stree bhAvam

naturally. She did not have to take on that bhAvam

(anyApadesha). 3. She had greater qualities than

Azhvars (He gave her His beauty and guNa), while the

pirAttis gave her their svarUpa and svabhAva.

Therefore, unlike her fathers (the Azhvars) her

femininity was not made, but natural. 4. She too,

however has a anyApadesha which is taking on the

gOpika bhAvam. Their kulam is one that is close to

Him, as in "kulam tharum" pasuram.

 

AdiyEn cannot claim to know Manavala Mamunigal's

thiruvuLLam and what were all the reasons he had when

he wrote that her act was greater than that of Azhvars.

But adiyEn is convinced that Swami would not have

differed on these points. He does use "anjukudikku oru

santhathiyAy" to show that she was the heir of Azhvars

and "pinjAyp pazhuththAL" to show that she was immersed

in bhakti right from childhood. I am sure he had a host

of other points in addition, that show how her greatness.

 

These are just adiyEn's simple opinions. If you wish

greater clarification, adiyEn requests you to seek an

acharya and/or Srivaishnava scholars and clarify your

doubts.

 

As I mentioned in my first post, I only presented one or

two points that came to my mind, and that there are

multitudes of points still left. I will leave with one

anecdote that shows Andal and Thiruppavai's greatness.

 

Someone once asked Sri Ramanuja to explain the meaning

of one pasuram of Thiruppavai. He replied "One can

find someone to give the meanings of even Thiru-p-

PallANdu; but one will not find anyone to give the

meanings of Thiruppavai". He went on to say that

"Men are not eligible to listen to its meanings; only

women are. Even amongst them, the pirAttis who are

there to enjoy the Lord for themselves are not

eligible. Why say many things? Andal who is the

essence of the ten azhvars should say the meanings

herself and listen to them herself".

 

So, perhaps one can say that the fact that she wrote

Thiruppavai alone is sufficient to say that Andal is

greater than the Azhvars.

 

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan

TCA Venkatesan

 

--- Nanmaaran <nanmaaran wrote:

>

> Dear Shri Venkatesan,

> Thanks for your detailed reply. But i would like to know

> how "nahi nindhya nyaayam" will get applied here as Shri

> Manavaala maamuni does not simply say that "Andal is

> great" if the statement is like that, then we can apply

> nahi nindhya and say that by that statement, he is not

> saying that others are not great.

> But he says specifically " She excels over other alwars"

> (aazhwarkaL than cheyalai vinji niRkum thanmaiyaLaay) and

> we cannot apply nahi nindhya nyaayam here as It was a

> clear statement about Andal very much keeping other

> azhwars in mind.

> And Natural nayika baavam theory also does not fit as

> "Excelling" attribute. Gopika baavam also cannot be taken

> as "excelling one" over periyaazhvar's thaay baavam and

> kulasekara azhwar's thanthai baavam.

> I think we should investigate more on " by which act she

> excelled over others alwars" Acharya like Manavaala

> Mamuni would not have said a statement just for enjoyment

> and just to praise Andal.

> Regards,

> Nanmaaran.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Venkatesan,

Sorry for the delayed response. I was in a official tour.

Let me try to explain the point in detail. For example, we can say that

"Einstien is uncomparable". Here it wont mean that he is the Superior in all

kinds. In that particular subject and angle or way of expression, he is

uncomparable. Same way we can say "Stephen Hawking is uncomparable" Whereas if

one says that "Stephen Hawking excels over other scientists of the century" then

that has to have a specific reason and cannot be brought under nahi ninda

nyaayam. I think the example is clear. In the same way, maamunigaL had said that

"thiruppalaanduku undO oppu" etc. At the same time he says "Andaal excels over

other azhwars" he does not say "thriupaavaikku oppu unDO."

Thanks for posting 2000 padi and 4000 padi's references about "vinchi niRkum

thanmai".

1. But iam not able to get convinced that her "natural feminine gender gave that

excellence". It could be an advantage to her as she can absorb stree baava

quickly. but cannot be an "Excelling factor" as Males absorbing stree baava is

more tougher.And moreover there is nothing physical when said about "stree

baavam" it is only at Mind which a born male can also achieve which was shown by

other alwars in their naayaki baavam.

2. How come she becomes the heir of the azhwars as historically she is prior to

later azhwars like thirumangai azhwar, thiruppaanazhwar etc?

3. If shri raamanuja's eNNam was that "ladies are the better people to learn

and understand tirupaavai" then how come we have other male acharyas who enjoyed

thirupaavai and wrote thaniyans like " thirupaavai muppathum cheppinaaL

vaazhiyE" Note that even shri maamunigaL also lived after shri raamanuja. So i

wonder whether raamanuja had made such statements or this is some story which

got into shri Ramanuja's life history later.

4. And if you read thru out the "upadEsa rathina maalai" we can notice that

only for aaNdaaL he had made such deeper statement like " aaNdaaLai bhakthiyudan

naaLum vazhuthaai" He had told about pallaadu, thriuvaaymozhi etc but word

"bhakthi" is attached to her ONLY.

On the way of searching the answers for this, i had a chance to read one old

tamil uRai for this. Let me get the same in my hand, translate and post it here.

Regards,

Nanmaaran

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Note from Moderator:

 

I sense that not much value is being added in continuing this thread at this

point. It is traditional to accept pUrVAcAryas' interpretations and anubhavams.

It is possible that different AcAryas may have different anubhavam's, and in

this case one follows one's own AcArya's instructions. These issues cannot be

settled by debating through mail after a point. So I would like to reqeust that

further discussion on the above be pursued through private mail, or through

recourse to a proper AcArya.

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