Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 This is a combined preliminary addendum to the points made by various respondents. The writer once again thanks all for taking pains to add to the knowledge for benefit of all. The response of the writer is in brackets and underlined and placed below the relevant comments by worthy bhaktas. "Balamurali N.S." s.ramachandran <nsb_m Dear Sri Ramachandran, Please visit http://www.vethathiri.org for practical information of doing kundalini yoga. Kundalini Yoga is not a mystery, not a frightening thing, and neither it is for a exclusive few. I took initiation from them and I do practice it and I can say from my experience that is a feeling that has one has to experience rather than hear or read. ( Fair Sir. You have correctly mentioned. The experience cannot be told but has to be 'experienced' ) with warm regards, Balamurali rwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 05:33 PM ----- "vaidyanathiyer <vaidyanathiyer@ s.ramachandran >" sir, namaskarams i am really happy you have really takenup this issue. the yoga kundalini upanishad,which gives complete details as to how it should be done is with me also. if you are interested then i shall explain the same. as far as vishitadvaita philosiphy is concerned,they don't even atempt at realising the self,as it is against their philosiphy.also they say only god is true,human beings are born out of karma and utmost can ask for being pardened for this birth.ok they are pardened then what happens. as far as i know,there are two ways of reaching the god. one way is by surrendering to him and singing devotional songs. second by realising the self which is god or parabrahmam,which can be realised by awakening the kundalini (Is this an conclusion or a doubt. If a conclusion then the writer regrets that nothing can be more far from the truth. Please read below for further details) which is with in every human being. to do this we may encounter difficult obstacles,which can be over comecome over a period of time,provided the individual is keen to do that.this is basic of advaita which was not agreed upon by sri ramanuja but has been proved by many whom came later.in kaliyuga mere bhakti is enough to attain the god or mukti,however realising the self reqires a little bit more effort,which can be done by yogi's through yogakundalini.this is main dispute between advaita and vishistadvaita. i too is a beginer in this attempt.glad i have a friend. thanks cdr bvn "balajiv_54 <balajiv_54@yaho s.ramachandran o.co.in>" cc: sir, your article is interesting one.this yoga is practiced by all yogis to control the human body,and realise the self.the side effects are not because of yoga,but because of not doing it properly.this is done by great rishis who after long years of thapas,want to merge with brahman.this is a advaidic concept and not accepted by the vaishnava acharyas.the yogi attains nirvikalpa samadhi. balaji ( However, if you read what the writer has mentioned towards the concluding para of his first mail on Kundalini,Yoga does not render itself to any sect, cult or religion. It is purely an ancient, proven, scientific, universal code for humans to achieve their purpose, whatever it may be. Therefore, it is NOT ADVAITIC ETC...The names like Nirvikalpa Samadhi, advaitic, Brahman etc. are not appearing in the orthodox exposition on Yoga. These terms have been concieved, evolved subsequently. Lastly, accepting or rejecting a concept is immaterial as far as Yoga is concerned. The Great Patanjali has therefore, very very cleverly and intelligently codified the principles in Sutra form. Any other form would have not done justice to the principles. You may ask what is special about a Sutra form? Briefly, a Sutra is a terse,linking/hooking word(or words) pregnent with meanings and interpretations and employe the MOST appropriate words and grammer. The words are such that they are of universal application and cannot be subject to ad hoc interpretation. Only one meaning can be attributed to them. The contents of a Sutra are universal truths which reflects the "What is" !!. You are right, of course about the side effects which indeed come about due to faulty practices, which are also clearly outlined in the Sutras.) ----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 09:17 AM ----- Visu9 s.ramachandran 01/18/03 07:24 cc: PM Re: Kundalini etc. /namastE Sri Ramachandran. What you say about Kundalini is true. Once you activate it, all differences vanish. That is one goes beyond /Sri vaishnavism, saivism etc. It is the definition of a /sanyAsi that he or she does not belong to an institution. That is, a true /sanyAsi is one who has no human conections that bind him or her. He/she stands as an individual and only god is his/her Master. (There is a slight modification to this point from the Yoga principles. In yoga the concepts of Sanyasi, God, master etc. are all irrelevant. What seems to matter is that the individual no longer exists and an altogether different merged state of an entity seems to flower.) In our times, Mahatma Gandhi was a true /sanYAsi. He belonged to no institution and yet everybody needed him. That is what happens, when one becomes a /sanyAsi. (One is not sure about Mahatma Gandhi...although he was useful and did a lot to country, people etc. bottomline is he too was under the human illusion of seeking the good of ' HIS' country-men. A real Yogi on the path to the ultimate flowering of the soul sheds all such mere human bondages. At some stage even the sense of gender/ me/mine/His etc. melt away. The closest one can think of the type of human entities which you refer may be : a. Ramana Maharishi b. Ramakrishna Parahamsa c. Saint Thyagrajar d. Shri Madhurakavi Alwar) /anpuTan, Visu ----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 09:17 AM ----- "Mukundan <mukrupa bhakti-list om>" <mukrupa Dear bhAgavathAs, AdiyEn was practising rAja yOgA (BrahmakumAri's), TM (Mahesh Yogi) and even was taught about kundalini. I was really impressed by "Thirumanthiram" of Thirumoolar". (I've written about myself quite elaborately in my introductory mail in Bhakti-list, during June2002) Once, I was thinking that it was enough to do meditation separately, which I perfected too, which brought clear mind etc., But NOW, after atleast about 15 years of practising those so called yOgAs, I can say that these are all only "HINDRANCES" to actual realisation of srIman nArAyaNA. Our SaraNAgathy procedure objects "Enjoying the pleasure brought out by AtmAnubhavam after SaraNAgathy". (One is not sure about this aspect Sir...Yoga is clear...atmaanubhavam is the means and not an end....and there is no pleasure ..it is beyond pain and pleasure and is an aid to saranagathy) Although there are plenty of other systems, yogAs etc., which of course bring immediate benefits for "lowkIka" matters, (If you do not mind, let the writer correct the point. Yogas etc. are not systems for immediate benefits for lowkika matters. Benefits in Lowkika matters is one of the immediately percetible benfits, but the ultimate aim and purpose is pursuit of something beyond...Yoga is a journey in that sense..) We HAVE to follow what has been devised for us by our pUrvAchAryAs and has been practised by our ancestors for millennia. As visishtAdvaitins, We have been blessed with a COMPLETE system to be practised lifelong. (Indeed, what have the Purvacharyas practiced over the millennia ? They have involved themselves in a COMPLETE SYSTEM to be practiced lifelong. What all does this 'practical things' comprise? Sandhiyavandanam, which includes Pranayam - prana + ayam i.e. ayem is lengthening, so elongating the prana and thereby live a longer life ? why ? to enable to oneself to understand this whole gamut of life, universe etc. and ultimately release onself) We have to seek (or srIman NArAyaNA has to bless us with) a sadAchAryan to understand the subtle messages conveyed by our philosophy. ADiyEn is really proud to have one such AchAryan, who, within a very short time has changed my PREVIOUS indisciplines and is now preparing me to undergo "SaraNAgathy" very soon (01.02.03). (I'm mentioning about srI. Hari of Singapore who does not like to be praised etc., so I stop with this...) My humble suggestion to all visishtAdvaitins is 1) to approach an AchAryan with due respect and learn EVERY SINGLE THING from him. 2) Do trikAla sandyAvandanA which has everything in it. (japA, yogA, exercise, prANAyAmA etc). (THIS IS IT FRIENDS, THIS IS IT. SHRI MUKUNDAN HAS HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD LITERALLY. ) Sorry to say that "We have butter in Hand but looking for ghee" dAsan Mukundan singapore. ----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 09:17 AM ----- "Lakshmi Narasimhan" <bhakti-list>, <nrusimhan@hotma <bhakti-list>, <sv-rituals> il.com> ( Sasthanga Namaskaram's to all of you for even thinking that this writer can enlighten such a scholarly and devouted set of members. The writer is totally floored. He is speechless. He will try his best but requests and humbly begs the members to take everything he says with a pinch of salt and test with established principles, the great Acharyas, the sacred texts and the experience of elders. In the forthcoming notes, he will attempt to provide some information.) ================================================================= Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha Dear All, First of all, kindly accept my apologies, in case, by any means I would offend anyone with this mail, though it is never my intent. I am so happy to see this e-mail on kundalini as it has given me an excellent opportunity to share one of the BEST kalakshepams I've heard from my swamy. The kalakshepam started with the subject on various popular shastras that are being condemened by great scholars in support of the Saranagathi Philosophy. Each shastra is examined one by one. Yoga Shastram: Essence - You put effort to know him. Condemened, due to numerous reasons. An example was cited by Shri swamy. A rich man exercises everyday to maintain his body, i.e he needs the tools to maintain it. A poor man works a lot and hence his body is in shape due to the very reason that he is a worker by nature. The poor man needs no tools. ( FIRST AND FOREMOST RESPECTED SIR, YOGA has nothing to do with physical aspect as a primary tool !! The mind, very roughly lets for the sake of simplicity refer this as Chitta, is the starting point. If you read the Yoga Sutras, which is divided into 4 chapters the first is "Samadhi padha" and deals with definitions, gross meanings of what all Yoga covers. The next chapter "Sadhana Pada" deals with the practical aspect i.e. the How -to aspect. In the first part, Asana (i.e. the physical aspect) ranks third next to Yama and Niyama which are social and personal principles. You can readily see therefore, that the physical aspect is nothing to do with exercise as commonly understood. In fact, the subtler purpose of mediation is to attempt to understand the constant movements inside the mind. The economic status (rich or poor) is of no relevance here. Nor is the body ' maintained' as a culture. Unregulated, erratic and unconscious movement of the limbs, senses, and mind are all sought to be brought into the realm of conscious and deliberate focus to attain something other than the gross existence. Finally, Tarka, Vyakarna are philosophical and theoretical tools to enable us to understand the finer aspects of thinking and thoughts, but Yoga is the only Sastra which is firmly rooted in practice. Practical, physical, mental effort is must Therefore, Yoga is a way of life. The Sandhyavandanam which is standard for the poor and rich man has the seeds of Asana, Pranayama, Saranagati. Everything. Should we condemn it just because of economic state of the person?) Similarly, the tools like yogabyasam etc are for those who do not work:) i.e who donot service the ultimate after performing saranagathi. But for a person who has done saranagathi, he needs no special exercise or efforts. The kuntalini is in him and he is in the state of bliss all the time. Sir, one chooses the Yogic path to discover something beyond the known. From a general service to one-self, the person when he comes in contact with Yoga undergoes a cathartic change. What is the nature of this change? The person becomes aware that he/she and the body/senses is not the be all and end all. That all the pains, sufferings etc. including the maya needs to be put to order, rest and resolved; that he/she can use only this body/mind/breath to do this; The first stricture under Yama is Ahimsa,next Satya,next Asteya. These are nothing but social rules which the individual has to adhere in the path of Yoga. You will immediately see that all these are connected with society i.e.man's relation to society and his immediate surroundings.This includes compassion, pity, empathy, "Prati paksha Bhavana" (seeing the other point). These are base principles are to be complied before he/she graduates to Asana and Pranayama. It is very obvious therefore, that the person is deeply involved in the service of his fellow beings which includes animals, plants, insects also. He is not concerned with God at this point. Please read the Patanjali Yoga Sutras. So please do not misunderstand and condemn Yoga which is the generic term, while the offshoots are Bhakti Yoga, Laya Yoga, Tantra Yoga, Karma Yoga, Jyana Yoga. But all are Yoga, if you will note. Incidentally, whichever system you take, whichever path or method you employ it has to go through the core disciplines outlined in the Sutras. All the SriVaishnawa acharyas, all Gurus, all Saiva acharyas, advita, Dwita, Sri Ramanuja, All the greats who are our preceptors, all have trod on - knowingly or unknowingly as an divine instinct,the path of Yoga and arrived at their respective Pedestals So please do not underestimate Yoga. The core of Bhagwat Gita and Krishna's discourse is Yoga. The Greatest and highest Yogi is Krishna Himself.Can you deny or contradict that ? Even for Sarnagathi one has to go through the disciplines of Yoga- Sutra II-1 which says "Tapah, Swadyaya Iswarapranidani Kriya Yogah:" Each of the Alwars are nothing but a symbol of Yogic achievement. The only nomenclature we humans can use to describe their path is "bhakti Yoga". Being immersed in the goodness of the Lord is itself a form of Samadhi,an one-pointed focus which is the Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi (the last three components of Ashtanga Yoga) - Sutra II-29 What happens in saranagathi? You give up all and surrender. You give up all which means you also give up Your self. You are no longer there to experience the Saranagathi. There is only the purity of Silent and reverential surrender. How does one achieve this? Only by constant practice - which is what the Yoga Sutras endorse "Abhyasa Vairagya Tannirodha". - Sutra I-12 Finally,the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You are free to quote and give whatever instances which come to your mind and you will see it will fit into one or the other components of Yoga. As regards your point on such a person being in eternal bliss and not requiring any bodily exercise it is absolutely true, but look at the irony of the whole thing. When a person attains full saranagathi and is in that state, he has already stilled his mind and body,limbs, senses - Sutra II-40 says "Sauchya...Parai..." i..e inner and extenal cleanliness being established, there comes about a distinct distaste/indifference to for ones own body and senses." Think about this deeply. Such a person does not need anything obviously to support. So the preliminary has to be gone through before the finals are taken. And the preliminary discipline is Yoga. The rich man has a power. If someone doesn't give what is due to him, he will send 10 people to scare ( which means he is not following the path of Yoga because he is indulging in Himsa ) and threaten and get the same. The poor man has a power that is superior to this rich man's power. When anything unjust is done to a poor man, if he heartily curses, it will bring 10 rich men to the roads in no time. If in the lowkika life we see this happening, then in the spiritual life, one can imagine what is the state of the one who has performed saranagathi ( Sir, Saranagathi HAPPENS please,it just takes place. One cannot perform. You can only make yourself fit for the LORD's glance and behold Saranagathi has taken place. The mind has to be emptied for the pure to occur. to the ultimate("akinchanaha; ananyagadhihi; asaranyaha, tvath paadaravindhayugalam saranamaham prapadhye") when compared to the one who performs the yoga etc to bring out the kuntalini by his/her own efforts. (Again, going purely by the canonical text of Yoga i.e the Patanjali Yoga Sutras, Kundalini effort is not relevant. Kundalini is not even mentioned. So the question of practice of Kundalini raising itself does not arise. However, this does not mean that the Kundalini is inconsequential. It has its own relevance and place.) The Yoga shastra is being condemed due to this path. (Yoga is not a path. Yoga is Yoga. QED.The Yoga principles are an eternally assertive truths which require no refutation nor acceptance. For instance it says " The mind has thought patterns" Can you justify, or refute or accept or reject or condemn it? Beat your head against this wall how muchsoever and no result will happen. The truth will continue to be valid for 1000 years and beyond.) I.E when one puts his/her own efforts to seek the almighty, he/she actually ends up enjoying the effort that was put in by him/her and hence on all probabilities falls for the self i.e the atman. (Very true, but the irony of this point is ask yourself the basic question? Why are you born ? why do you do something at all? Try to not do anything and be still? No activity or sleep will not yield anything. Even a base animal like the miniscule plankton in the sea has to put effort for mere survival. The human's effort is to attempt to see and achieve if posisble that which is beyond his gross self to that end he/she has to make efforts, either physical or mental or psychological or materially, or emotionally or spiritually. Any path, but nonetheless effort of body mind and breath to know the LORDs blessings. You can't take Lord's designs for granted. Again the vision of the Great Patanjali has to be appreciated. Over 2000 years ago he contemplated that perhaps on Jan 17, 2003, such-and-such a person may have some apprehensions on this aspect of enjoyment of benefits of Yogic efforts. Therefore, one needs to keep an answer ready. The Sutras say in Chapter three appropriately titled "Vibhuti Pada" powers which the efforts will yield. These powers might be tempting and are OBSTACLES.- Sutra III-38 says "Te samadahatusarga....siddha:" i.e. these powers in the worldly states are obstacles. Patanjali has already foreseen your doubt and responded in HIS Sutra that these are obstacles. One should not be deluded by these powers which are but a symbol that the person is on the right track.) This means, yoga shastra lets you enjoy your effort and before the time you seek the almighty, it puts you in a trap (Pardon the writer saying so, but this is utter nonsense and one can proclaim it gustily aloud. Yoga is a gift to Mankind by Sriman Narayanan conveyed through his trusted lieutenant Adi Seshan who came down to earth on the express command of Maha Vishnu and who codified the canons of Yoga. Something which is based on the Vedas and has come down divinely from the blessings of the Divya Dampadhis can it ever ever be a TRAP? Please take back such baseless conclusions !!!!. Please, Sir, Patanjali is depicted with the Shanka and Chakra and is a representative of that Greatest of the Great Maha Vishnu. ) where you think YOU had the capability to find HIM and it was all YOUR efforts. (One is not sure where your respected self has got these ideas/concepts. Yoga does not talk of gender. It does not talk of God. It does not talk of Brahman. It does not talk of finding HIM. It does not talk of YOUR efforts. It simply declares : The mind is the seat and sole repository of a human and with the help of the mind, using the body and breath as support one can perhaps come closer to investigating the ultimate reality, which is again left undefined. It declares the obstacles,) This state is often described as "Kaivalyam" (the "Edu Nilam" in tamizh). It has been mentioned that going to hell is better than being trapped in Kaivalyam, (Would sincerely appreciate if you could substantiate as to where this is mentoned?) the reason being, one will get back to this world from hell and will be given a chance to think of the almighty while those who are trapped in kaivalyam (it is one of the mokshams as mentioned by our Purvacharyars) are never freed until the almighty really wants to free them. (Which is perfectly alright since it is the Lord's wish. What is wrong ?) And hence, Kaivalyam is probably the worst place one should not go to. ( Respected Sir something is definitely missing in your analysis The writer is aghast. If you are a votary of Saranagathi, then no place is worst as long as you are under the shadow of the Great Cosmic Emperor MAHA VISHNU Will you ever even conceptually contemplate your children in a worst situation ? So even Kaivalyam is a heaven if one is under true saranagathi.) Swamy concludes that, due to the various reasons cited above, those paths need not be adapted for those who have fallen under the protection of Shri Ramanujar's Saranagathi tattvam. He continues saying that there is nothing called "Your Effort" to seek him. You belong to him. Our hands do not try to know us. They do their duty (How do you define duty? Duty is effort in the right direction. And what is the right direction ? Right direction is in the direction of the path of Yoga which is physical, mental psycholigical, psysiological, emotional activity (effort in other words) towards a goal beyond the mundane affairs on the material plane.) and have maha-vishwasam with the atman, that it will take care of them. Similarly we must do our service to him and must have the maha-vishwasam on him that he will take care of us and the need for other shastras will eventually fade away. (Sir you are tempting the writer to elaborate a small anacdote about Lord Shani's powers with Lord Shiva. Once during a debate everyone declared that Lord Shani will not spare anyone for his legendary 7-1/2 yrs 'grasp'. Lord Shiva proudly threw a challenge that He will try to outwit Lord Shani in his endeavours. Lord Shani coolly declared "It is fated thus...no one can be spared...when the time comes I will do my duty and 'grasp' anyone so destined. Nothing can outwit me... The challenge was accepted. Lord Shiva said that " Ok Mr.Shani Sir, tell me the date and time when I am supposed to be under your grip, and I will try to avoid it. Yo You have to eat humble pie and say sorry to all if you are defeated?" 'Fair' was a terse remark by Lord Shani who promptly gave a specific date and time when Shiva's 7-1/2 yr turn was due to commence. The day dawned. A few minutes before the relevant time, Lord Shiva was frantic. He quietly changed himself into a dark bacteria which thrives in the sewerage and go himself into one of the deepest, darkest stream of undergroud sewerage/dirt and filth. After an hour past the alloted time, Shiva assumed his real form and came out to his proper abode in the heavens and proudly declared that He had outwitted Lord Shani. Everyone was eagerly awaiting Lord Shani's apology. Lord Shani being what he is casually declared "Look Sir Shiva, why don't you accept defeat?" Shiva and all were surprised. "Look, how can you say as such. You could not reach me" Lord Shani enquired innocently "Oh ! sorry, that is true, but now that the contest is over can you tell me where were you during that time?" Proudly Lord Shiva told him and the others about his bacteria form in the gutters. Lord Shani merely said " Sir, but then you were residing in my drawing room". The darkest corners, vilest places, the most ugly and dirty place is where I reside. So at that time you had already come into my own parlour Sir Shiva. I did not invite you. You came of your own volition. So too Sir, you have meantioned "Mahaviswasam, duty, saranagathi etc." as away and superior from Yoga, which are nothing but dis-jointed words which in a Sutra single word form is called "Yoga". ) All credits go only to my swamy "Shri Chaturvedi Swamy" and anything that is incorrect is purely my mis-interpretation and my apologies for the same. Om Tat Sat Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jaamaataram Munim Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan, Lakshmi Narasimhan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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