re how could such a raamaa do that - post 9

[Guest guest]

Post 9

 

Dear sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer,

 

I was waiting for the responses for a considerable length of time. Since no more

than one came in public in the list, and one in private mail, I thought, it is

my duty to share the clarification, what I got from the senior person who put

this question. Also, as usual, some modification made by me to present them

suitably.

 

Point no. 1 for clarification: Presume this includes the varNaasrama dharmam

also.

 

Clarification: yes. No doubt has to be there. "Dharmam" is a general word. Any

particular application having a bearing on this "dharmam" is inclusive and not

exclusive.

 

Point no. 2 for clarification: Since there is no separate classification as

raakshasaas, wherein these raakshaasaas, raavaNa and his team, will be grouped

in the above 4 classification. Though it is said this classification is done

based on guNa - character, and karma - the actions, wherein the raakshasaas will

fall in BrahmaNa or Kshathriya or Vaisya or Soodhra.

 

Can it then be concluded that there are no separate rules or "varNa aasrama

dharma" for that particular classification of people named "raakshasaas".

 

Ms. Gayathri sharma says [in the bhakti list] -- i think two different subjects

i.e. varnashrama dharma which is based on classifications of castes in hindu

religion. And manava, devata, rakshasa, which may be classified as jati i.e.

different, is clubbed. for example--sura, asura, manava, kinnera, kimpurusha,

etc.,these all are various jaatis for which there may be different dharma.

 

MGV: As stated in the write up quoting srimadh bhagavath geethaa slOkam, the

varNa classification is based on the karma - action or work and guNa - the basic

nature of the person. Not on caste or jaathi. Jaathi may be a later day name

given to this varNa classification according to guNa and work. So these two

should not be clubbed.

 

GS: as stated above, ravana and his group may be classified under group of

"asura jati" instead of "manavas".

 

MGV: there is only "manushyas" -or "maanavaas" - means the descendants of manu -

meaning people - human beings in this BhoolOkam. The dhEvaas, kinnaraas,

chaaraNaas, kimpurushaas, gandharvaas are all people of different lokam -

celestial, and not belong to this Bhoo lOkam. So they are not in discussion at

all.

 

MGV: Again "asura" is also humans - manushyaas or maanavaas only - by their

nature of extreme characteristics or aasura guNam. Again there is no such

separate class of people called asuraas - they are also human beings with

extremities in guNaas. They are called asuraas because of aasura guNam - extreme

in nature - may be arrogantly violent, very high kaama, very large appetite etc.

 

GS: Even if you take the classification based on the character, since his

actions mostly are of raakshasa like opposing and disbelieving narayana, he can

be put in asura jati.

 

MGV: what is raakshaasa is to be checked again - it is once again extremities -

raajasic- in action- forceful violent etc and thaamasic in nature predominantly

- not applying the intellect - yielding to the instantaneous desire - with very

minimal sathva gunam.

 

So whatever classification you want to put raakshasaas in is again based on

their guNam and work.

 

As such there is no separate class of people called raakshasaa and as such no

separate varna aasrama dharma for them. [apart from these 4 as stated in geetha]

 

On this point of "opposing naaraayaNa" by raakshasaas as stated by GS, I will

not comment.

 

Point no.3 for clarification: In Monier Williams dictionary page 817 col 3 for

the word - raakshasaas - a point is given "it is also said to be born out of

feet of brahma".

 

Since "soodhra" is said to be born out of the feet of the viraat purusha, as we

find in purusha sooktham, does this mean whatever varna aasrama dharma rules are

applicable to "soodhraas"- viz. serving to people of other three varNa - is the

only varNa aasrama Dharma - rule applicable to these raakshasaas. Is it correct.

 

Clarification: already covered in point above.

 

The point for clarification no 4 is [or the main question]: - how could the

saasthragNa, dharmagna- such a raamaa can go beyond the established "varNa

aashrama dharma rules" and perform the raajya abhishEkam to viBheeshaNa, a

brahmanan by birth and also by anushtaanams. This means raamaa himself flouted

the rules of "varNa aasrama dharma rules".

 

MGV: there is NO FLUTING of varNa aasrama dharmam by sri raama. How this

conclusion arrived is eloborated herein.

 

Point 1. As sri aanjanEyalu rightly pointed out in a private mail - when a

person takes surrender or aBhayam- asylum in the lord, becomes a dhaasa to the

Lord. Here viBheeshaNa to lord raama - so he became a raama dhaasan. Then the

lord raamaa gives him the command "raajaanam thvaam karishyaamiI make you

king" to viBheeshana. Then viBheeshaNa has to simply obey that command of the

lord and do the raajaya paalanam - be the king and rule the kingdom - that is

dhaasya lakshaNam - qualities of a servant.

 

No argument with the lord the supreme commander, that I am a braahmaNa and it is

against my varNa aasrama dharmam etc.

 

That is what viBheeshana did and also did it with full obedience to raama and

according to the way shown by raama. For "raama raajyam" was going on the other

side with that supreme lord in the throne and what viBheeshana was doing is to

simply copy the style of raama in governance.

 

Further, here, viBheeshana's servitude is full of sathva nature - knowing fully

well what is to be done, what not to be done etc. It is not born out of desire

for power [rajasic] or ignorance "thamasic" as is the case with a soodhra.

 

Raama knows well about viBheeshana, for he was fully informed by that

knowledgeable hanumaan. So by making such a brahmana to do the role of a king,

raamaa has not flouted Dharma and did not do any varNa misra kaaryam.

 

Point 2. Looking at in a different angle,

the lord said in his "song celestial" - the bhagavad geethaa

chaathur varNyam mayaa srushtam guNa karma viBhaagasa:|

thasya karthaaram api maam vidhDhykarthaaram avyayam || - 4 -13

 

Further the lord explain what is the duty of each varNam in chapter 18 slokaas

41 to 44

 

brahmaNa kshathriyavisaam soodhraaNaam cha paranthapa

karmaaNi praviBhakthaani svaBhaava praBhavaiguNai: || - 18 - 41

 

meaning: O paranthapa - arjuna - who annihilates the opposition, the division of

labour into four catogories the braahmaNa, kshathriya, vaisya, and soodhra is

also based on the guNaas inherent in the people's nature [or the natural

propensities and not necessarily as one's birth right].

 

samO dhamasthapa: soucham kshaanthiraarjavamEva cha|

gnaanam vignaanam aasthikyam brahmakarma svaBhaavajam || -18 -42

 

meaning: Those who have serenity, self control, austerity, purity, patience,

honesty, knowledge, self realisation, and belief in god are called braahmaNaas,

the intellectuals.

 

souryam thEjO dhruthidhaarkshyam yudhDhE chaapyapalaayanam|

dhaanam eesvara Bhaavascha kshaathram karma svaBhaavajam|| - 18-43

 

meaning: those having the qualities of heroism, vigour, firmness, dexterity, not

fleeing from battle, charity, and administrative skills are called kshathriyaas,

the protectors.

 

krushe gO rakshya vaaNijyam vaisya karma svaBhaavajam

paricharyaathmakam karma soodhrasyaapi svaBhaavajam|| - 18 -44

 

meaning: those who are good in cultivation, cattle rearing, business, trade,

and industry are known as vaisyaas. Those who do service and labour type of work

are classified as soodhraas.

 

Krishna says all these 4 varNaasrama dharma is based on the "mind faculty and

nature of each person" and are not as birthright.

 

Swamy Chidhbhavaanandha in his commentary on geetha adds [ re p 841] "Among four

brothers you can find one is more religious [ braahmaNa], one is warring

[kshahriya] third is industrious [vaisya], one is always obedient and dull

[soodhra]. Further in a society the majority of people may have the nature of

one class like braahmaNa or kshathriya. The top class of people viz brahmanaas

[sC used the word anthaNan] are more intellectual and educated in all spheres,

thereby knows the work and duties of lower classes. Thereby the braahmana is

knowledgeable and capable to do the work of all 4 class of people. similarly a

kshathriya is capable of doing work three classes. Thus it is in the descending

order the capacities come for each class.

 

So a person of higher plane can carry out the duties a lower plane job. But

unless the lower plane man also gets fully educated or qualified, he can not do

the other varna's job.

 

That is why, when raama did the raajyaaBhishEkam for the braahmaNan viBheeshana

to perform the next grade duty of a kshathriya of doing rajya Bharam etc, NO

varNa aasrama Dharmam is flouted. Or no varNa misra kaaryam has taken place.

 

Trust I have put in the clarification for the question raised for your

consideration.

 

Dhasan

 

Vasudevan m.g.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir, What was your point?(How could such a Raamaa do that). May be i

missed. Can you repost about what did Raama do? Regards,Nanmaaran

 

"M.G.Vasudevan" <mgv wrote:Post 9

 

Dear sri vaishNava perunthagaiyeer,

 

I was waiting for the responses for a considerable length of time. Since no more

than one came in public in the list, and one in private mail, I thought, it is

my duty to share the clarification, what I got from the senior person who put

this question. Also, as usual, some modification made by me to present them

suitably.

 

Point no. 1 for clarification: Presume this includes the varNaasrama dharmam

also.

 

Clarification: yes. No doubt has to be there. "Dharmam" is a general word. Any

particular application having a bearing on this "dharmam" is inclusive and not

exclusive.

 

Point no. 2 for clarification: Since there is no separate classification as

raakshasaas, wherein these raakshaasaas, raavaNa and his team, will be grouped

in the above 4 classification. Though it is said this classification is done

based on guNa - character, and karma - the actions, wherein the raakshasaas will

fall in BrahmaNa or Kshathriya or Vaisya or Soodhra.

 

Can it then be concluded that there are no separate rules or "varNa aasrama

dharma" for that particular classification of people named "raakshasaas".

 

Ms. Gayathri sharma says [in the bhakti list] -- i think two different subjects

i.e. varnashrama dharma which is based on classifications of castes in hindu

religion. And manava, devata, rakshasa, which may be classified as jati i.e.

different, is clubbed. for example--sura, asura, manava, kinnera, kimpurusha,

etc.,these all are various jaatis for which there may be different dharma.

 

MGV: As stated in the write up quoting srimadh bhagavath geethaa slOkam, the

varNa classification is based on the karma - action or work and guNa - the basic

nature of the person. Not on caste or jaathi. Jaathi may be a later day name

given to this varNa classification according to guNa and work. So these two

should not be clubbed.

 

GS: as stated above, ravana and his group may be classified under group of

"asura jati" instead of "manavas".

 

MGV: there is only "manushyas" -or "maanavaas" - means the descendants of manu -

meaning people - human beings in this BhoolOkam. The dhEvaas, kinnaraas,

chaaraNaas, kimpurushaas, gandharvaas are all people of different lokam -

celestial, and not belong to this Bhoo lOkam. So they are not in discussion at

all.

 

MGV: Again "asura" is also humans - manushyaas or maanavaas only - by their

nature of extreme characteristics or aasura guNam. Again there is no such

separate class of people called asuraas - they are also human beings with

extremities in guNaas. They are called asuraas because of aasura guNam - extreme

in nature - may be arrogantly violent, very high kaama, very large appetite etc.

 

GS: Even if you take the classification based on the character, since his

actions mostly are of raakshasa like opposing and disbelieving narayana, he can

be put in asura jati.

 

MGV: what is raakshaasa is to be checked again - it is once again extremities -

raajasic- in action- forceful violent etc and thaamasic in nature predominantly

- not applying the intellect - yielding to the instantaneous desire - with very

minimal sathva gunam.

 

So whatever classification you want to put raakshasaas in is again based on

their guNam and work.

 

As such there is no separate class of people called raakshasaa and as such no

separate varna aasrama dharma for them. [apart from these 4 as stated in geetha]

 

On this point of "opposing naaraayaNa" by raakshasaas as stated by GS, I will

not comment.

 

Point no.3 for clarification: In Monier Williams dictionary page 817 col 3 for

the word - raakshasaas - a point is given "it is also said to be born out of

feet of brahma".

 

Since "soodhra" is said to be born out of the feet of the viraat purusha, as we

find in purusha sooktham, does this mean whatever varna aasrama dharma rules are

applicable to "soodhraas"- viz. serving to people of other three varNa - is the

only varNa aasrama Dharma - rule applicable to these raakshasaas. Is it correct.

 

Clarification: already covered in point above.

 

The point for clarification no 4 is [or the main question]: - how could the

saasthragNa, dharmagna- such a raamaa can go beyond the established "varNa

aashrama dharma rules" and perform the raajya abhishEkam to viBheeshaNa, a

brahmanan by birth and also by anushtaanams. This means raamaa himself flouted

the rules of "varNa aasrama dharma rules".

 

MGV: there is NO FLUTING of varNa aasrama dharmam by sri raama. How this

conclusion arrived is eloborated herein.

 

Point 1. As sri aanjanEyalu rightly pointed out in a private mail - when a

person takes surrender or aBhayam- asylum in the lord, becomes a dhaasa to the

Lord. Here viBheeshaNa to lord raama - so he became a raama dhaasan. Then the

lord raamaa gives him the command "raajaanam thvaam karishyaamiI make you

king" to viBheeshana. Then viBheeshaNa has to simply obey that command of the

lord and do the raajaya paalanam - be the king and rule the kingdom - that is

dhaasya lakshaNam - qualities of a servant.

 

No argument with the lord the supreme commander, that I am a braahmaNa and it is

against my varNa aasrama dharmam etc.

 

That is what viBheeshana did and also did it with full obedience to raama and

according to the way shown by raama. For "raama raajyam" was going on the other

side with that supreme lord in the throne and what viBheeshana was doing is to

simply copy the style of raama in governance.

 

Further, here, viBheeshana's servitude is full of sathva nature - knowing fully

well what is to be done, what not to be done etc. It is not born out of desire

for power [rajasic] or ignorance "thamasic" as is the case with a soodhra.

 

Raama knows well about viBheeshana, for he was fully informed by that

knowledgeable hanumaan. So by making such a brahmana to do the role of a king,

raamaa has not flouted Dharma and did not do any varNa misra kaaryam.

 

Point 2. Looking at in a different angle,

the lord said in his "song celestial" - the bhagavad geethaa

chaathur varNyam mayaa srushtam guNa karma viBhaagasa:|

thasya karthaaram api maam vidhDhykarthaaram avyayam || - 4 -13

 

Further the lord explain what is the duty of each varNam in chapter 18 slokaas

41 to 44

 

brahmaNa kshathriyavisaam soodhraaNaam cha paranthapa

karmaaNi praviBhakthaani svaBhaava praBhavaiguNai: || - 18 - 41

 

meaning: O paranthapa - arjuna - who annihilates the opposition, the division of

labour into four catogories the braahmaNa, kshathriya, vaisya, and soodhra is

also based on the guNaas inherent in the people's nature [or the natural

propensities and not necessarily as one's birth right].

 

samO dhamasthapa: soucham kshaanthiraarjavamEva cha|

gnaanam vignaanam aasthikyam brahmakarma svaBhaavajam || -18 -42

 

meaning: Those who have serenity, self control, austerity, purity, patience,

honesty, knowledge, self realisation, and belief in god are called braahmaNaas,

the intellectuals.

 

souryam thEjO dhruthidhaarkshyam yudhDhE chaapyapalaayanam|

dhaanam eesvara Bhaavascha kshaathram karma svaBhaavajam|| - 18-43

 

meaning: those having the qualities of heroism, vigour, firmness, dexterity, not

fleeing from battle, charity, and administrative skills are called kshathriyaas,

the protectors.

 

krushe gO rakshya vaaNijyam vaisya karma svaBhaavajam

paricharyaathmakam karma soodhrasyaapi svaBhaavajam|| - 18 -44

 

meaning: those who are good in cultivation, cattle rearing, business, trade, and

industry are known as vaisyaas. Those who do service and labour type of work are

classified as soodhraas.

 

Krishna says all these 4 varNaasrama dharma is based on the "mind faculty and

nature of each person" and are not as birthright.

 

Swamy Chidhbhavaanandha in his commentary on geetha adds [ re p 841] "Among four

brothers you can find one is more religious [ braahmaNa], one is warring

[kshahriya] third is industrious [vaisya], one is always obedient and dull

[soodhra]. Further in a society the majority of people may have the nature of

one class like braahmaNa or kshathriya. The top class of people viz brahmanaas

[sC used the word anthaNan] are more intellectual and educated in all spheres,

thereby knows the work and duties of lower classes. Thereby the braahmana is

knowledgeable and capable to do the work of all 4 class of people. similarly a

kshathriya is capable of doing work three classes. Thus it is in the descending

order the capacities come for each class.

 

So a person of higher plane can carry out the duties a lower plane job. But

unless the lower plane man also gets fully educated or qualified, he can not do

the other varna's job.

 

That is why, when raama did the raajyaaBhishEkam for the braahmaNan viBheeshana

to perform the next grade duty of a kshathriya of doing rajya Bharam etc, NO

varNa aasrama Dharmam is flouted. Or no varNa misra kaaryam has taken place.

 

Trust I have put in the clarification for the question raised for your

consideration.

 

Dhasan

 

Vasudevan m.g.

 

 

 

-----------------------------

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