Gita, Vedanta and Advaita

[Guest guest]

Greetings Greg:

 

Thanks for your questions and thoughts. Ramanuja framework assumes the

supremesoul (Mahavishnu) who controlls the souls that were created by

the supreme. Obviously, bureaucratic rules and regulations are necessary

for the ultimate salvation of those souls. Mahavishnu is the ultimate

authority who creates, controlls and dissolves (salvation) those soles.

The entire drama of the world and all happenings are mystic (game) and

the reasons are beyond human perception! Bhakti is primary and Karma

is always diverted toward the Lord and Jnana and ultimately salvation

becomes the reward!

 

Madhava's framework is an organized bureaucratic structure where souls

occupy positions according to their qualifications! The real and

indestructible Is'wara is the CEO. Souls get promotions and demotions

according to their deeds. In summary, faith becomes much more prominant

than logic!

 

I have briefly outlined Advaita, Dvaita and Vishistadvaita philosophies

for the benefit to more than a dozen new comers to the list. I have also

provided WEB sites which discuss these philosophies in greater details.

 

Advaita: According to Sankara, God is infinitely higher than ourselves

and he is also infinitely near to us. He is nearer to us than our hands

and feet. He is the Soul of our souls. He is neither the body, nor the

senses, nor the mind nor the ego nor the intellect. He is the "I" that

is none of these and is ever-present witness to all our experiences. He

is our Atman and "He" is Brahman. He is the one Reality beyond which

there is none. Sankara's contribution to philosophy is his blending of

the doctrines of Karma and Maya, which culminated in a logical

exposition of the idea of non-dualism. The entire universe consisting of

Namarupa, names and forms, is but an appearance; Brahman, infinite

consciousness, is the sole reality. Sankara's philosophy, the essential

identity between Atman and Brahman is called "Advaita." It is a known

fact that Sankara was strongly influenced by Gaudapada, who had great

regard for the Buddhist philosophy. It is obvious that Sankara was

opposed to Buddhist thought in general, but unconsciously influenced by

some of its tenets. There is an updated version of the advaita vedAnta

FAQ at<http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~vidya/advaita/ad_faq.html>.

 

Dvaita: Madhvachar's philosophy is "Dvaita". Brahman is Hari or Visnu

definable to an extent by the Vedas. He has a transcendental form,

Vyuhas, Incarnations are His parts and Laksmi is distinct. The qualities

of Brahman are it is fully independent, the cause of all causes, supreme

bliss, devoid of false attributes but possesses all qualities. The soul

is atomic, it pervades the body by intelligence, infinite in number,

Karta and Bhokta. Creation is the actuation of what is in the womb of

matter and soul by the action of Brahman. The cause of bondage is the

divine will of the Supreme and ignorance of the soul (svarupa). The

process of release is through whole hearted devotion, study of the Vedas

and detached karma. The goal is to gain release from samsara and

restoration of one's own individual and gain all powers except creation

and there is no return. The released souls rise to the nature of God

and never to identify with Him. They never lose their individuality,

they are only released from the bondage of samsara. In summary, Visnu

is the only supreme being; and Bhakti is the primary essential for

liberation. Madhvacarya believed that Sankara's philosophy was a

disguised variety of Buddhism and was vehemently objected to Advaita: it

seemed to him presumptuous for the individual soul to claim identity

with Brahman. (See the Dwaita home page using the link under vedanta)

http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1415/index1.html

 

Visishtadvaita: Ramanuja's philosophy is "Visishtadvaita" and has the

following features: Brahman is not nirguna but saguna, that is, it is

not impersonal but a personality endowed with all the superior qualities

that we know of, like knowledge, power and love. The Upanishads, when

they declare the nirguna nature of Brahman, only deny certain lower

qualities and do not deny its every quality. The universe and

individual souls are also eternal, but they exist as the body of God, as

it were. In other words, God, souls and matter together form an

inseparable unity which is one and has no second. In this sense

ultimate reality is indeed one. But the distinction between God, souls

and matter must ever remain. See the web page:

http://www.best.com/~mani/sv.html

 

Ram Chandran

Burke, VA

[Guest guest]

The Hindu Scripture Bhagavad Gita unifies the currents of flow of the

religious and philosophical thoughts of sages and saints of India. Gita

has been recognized for centuries as an orthodox scripture of the Hindu

religion possessing equal authority with the Upanishads and the Brahma

Sutra. These three together form the triple canon (prasthaana-traya).

Three stalwart teachers of Vedanta - Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhava have

justified their doctrines through their commentaries to Gita, Upanishads

and Brahama Sutra. The commentaries of Gita by these great teachers

can help us to understand the Vedanta Philosophy overall and Advaita in

particular. Plural thoughts always originate in the beginning and after

contemplation there is potential for thier convergence. The appearance

of three philosophies is also an illusion and this illusion will

disappear when we have an open mind to evaluate all ideas without bias

and retains the one that is "real."

 

I encourage the list members to present their viewpoints from Gita and

bring questions related to Gita verses. The questions are more valuable

and all answers are only illusions! I present two verses from chapter

2 (verses 16 and 17) to begin this process of learning.

 

Chapter 2: Yoga of Knowledge (Verses 16 & 17)

Translations and interpretations of the Verses are from Dr.

Radhakrishnan's "The Bhagavad Gita." Discussions and errors are mine.

 

naa sato vidyate bhaavo naa bhavo vidyate satah (Verse 16)

ubhayor api drsto ‘ntas tv anayos tattvadars'ibhih

Of the non-existent there is no coming to be; of the existent there is

no ceasing to be. The conclusion about these two has been perceived by

the seers of Truth.

 

avinaasi tu tad viddhu yena sarvam idam tatam (Verse 17)

vinaasam avyayasya ‘sya na kas'cit kartum arhati

Know thou that by which all this is pervaded is indestructible. Of this

immutable being, no one can bring about the destruction.

 

Interpretation and Discussion

 

Sankara distinguishes real (sat) and unreal (asat) by the following: The

non failure of consciousness is sat and its failure is asat! The

consciousness of the objects varies but not the existence of the

consciousness! The unreal which is the passing show of the world, blurs

the unchanging reality which is forever manifest. Not even Is'vara, the

Supreme Lord can cause the destruction of the Self and its reality is

self-established (svatassiddha). The scriptures serve to remove the

adhyaaropana or superposition of the attributes alien to the SELF.

(Advaita Philosophy)

 

Ramanuja identifies unreal as the body and real as the soul. Ramanuja

also infers qualitative unity and equality in the presence of numerical

plurality of souls! (Philosophy of Vishistadvaita)

 

Madhava asserts that the first part of this verse shows the presence of

duality! According to Sanskrit grammatical structure, "Vidyate bhaavo"

and "Vidyate-abhaavah" are both valid expressions and Madhava interprets

as Vidyate-abhaavah and asserts duality. There is no destruction of the

un manifest (avyakta) prakriti. Sat of course is indestructible. (Dwaita

Philosophy)

 

Let me stop here and open up the floor for further discussion. The

discussion can begin on these verses or related verses or verses in

other chapters and topics in other books or scriptures.

--

Ram Chandran

[Guest guest]

At 09:55 AM 9/3/98 -0400, Ram Chandran wrote:

>Chapter 2: Yoga of Knowledge (Verses 16 & 17)

>

>Ramanuja identifies unreal as the body and real as the soul. Ramanuja

>also infers qualitative unity and equality in the presence of numerical

>plurality of souls! (Philosophy of Vishistadvaita)

 

OK, let me jump in here. I don't have any texts at work with me here, so

there won't be a lot of quotation. But here goes. I truly respect

Ramanuja as a brillient dialectician. I think his Malamudyakarika is

extraordinary, so good in fact, that it might defeat his purpose if the

purpose is qualified non-dualism, since to me it eloquently argues for pure

advaita. I also have Ramanuja's version of the Brahmasutra byasha but

haven't read it much. About Ram's commentary above, I have a question that

comes from something I used to ponder in Christianity many years ago,

echoed by a comment from Swami Vivekananda in his Gnana Yoga:

 

If there is a plurality of souls, what is a soul, and what distinguishes

one from another? They are not material, are they, even composed of

subtle, sattvic elements? Do they occupy space or move? For Ramanuja,

does a soul consist of Brahman identified as the sukshma sarira? That

would serve to distinguish one soul from another. But it is mixing the

real with the unreal. What IS a soul for Ramanuja?

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

At 08:27 AM 9/3/98 PDT, Ram Chandran wrote:

>

>I have briefly outlined Advaita, Dvaita and Vishistadvaita philosophies

>for the benefit to more than a dozen new comers to the list. I have also

>provided WEB sites which discuss these philosophies in greater details.

 

Ram,

 

Very informative posting, if there's an advaitin FAQ at some

point, these links and philosophical summaries should be on it. Ram, I'm

very glad about this list, it is a good thing. I'll visit these sites

about the various schools, maybe the (http://www.best.com/~mani/sv.html)

site will tell me what a soul is according to Ramanuja. There is not much

known about Gaudapada, is there?

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

.. I'll visit these sites

>about the various schools, maybe the (http://www.best.com/~mani/sv.html)

>site will tell me what a soul is according to Ramanuja. There is not much

>known about Gaudapada, is there?

>

>--Greg

 

Just a short visit - Soul in Ramanuja is what Ram wrote - it is a suukshma

- taken to mean very sub atomic - while Sankara interprets it the same word

as subtle. It is a chaitanya vastu - meaning a principle that has the

capacity to know. In a physical body which is matter, soul is there and

inside the soul is the paramaatma soul too - supreme soul like- sutre maNi

ganaa iva - like a thread supporting the necklace. In Ramanuja and even in

Madwa's philosophy there are three truths - Jeeva satyam, Jagat satyam and

Paramaatma satyam. Permanence of Jeeva or individual souls, permanence of

the world, and the Lord, paramaatma, or supreme atma. Paramaatma is

Naaraayana or Vishnu, pervades everything but different any thing else.

The universe is like supreme body of the Lord, which is made up of

individual souls and matter, He is the essential Soul of the universal

body. He is the total purusha. Creation is his leela or play. The souls

suffer because of their ignorance of the paramaatma and in the process get

entangled with Maya or prakriti. Without his grace, one cannot overcome

the maaya. Surrenderence is the only means. JNaana and Karma are

vehicles that help to develop the Bhakti needed one to surrender.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

At 12:20 PM 9/3/98 -0400, sadananda wrote:

>Just a short visit - Soul in Ramanuja is what Ram wrote - it is a suukshma

>- taken to mean very sub atomic - while Sankara interprets it the same word

>as subtle. It is a chaitanya vastu - meaning a principle that has the

>capacity to know. In a physical body which is matter, soul is there and

>inside the soul is the paramaatma soul too - supreme soul like- sutre maNi

>ganaa iva - like a thread supporting the necklace. In Ramanuja and even in

>Madwa's philosophy there are three truths - Jeeva satyam, Jagat satyam and

>Paramaatma satyam. Permanence of Jeeva or individual souls, permanence of

>the world, and the Lord, paramaatma, or supreme atma.

 

Thanks for the precis and answering my questions! I don't have unlimited

web access here at work.

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Ram Chandran wrote:

> Ram Chandran <chandran

>

> [...]

>

> I encourage the list members to present their viewpoints from Gita and

> bring questions related to Gita verses. The questions are more valuable

> and all answers are only illusions! I present two verses from chapter

> 2 (verses 16 and 17) to begin this process of learning.

>

> Chapter 2: Yoga of Knowledge (Verses 16 & 17)

> Translations and interpretations of the Verses are from Dr.

> Radhakrishnan's "The Bhagavad Gita." Discussions and errors are mine.

>

> naa sato vidyate bhaavo naa bhavo vidyate satah (Verse 16)

> ubhayor api drsto ‘ntas tv anayos tattvadars'ibhih

> Of the non-existent there is no coming to be; of the existent there is

> no ceasing to be. The conclusion about these two has been perceived by

> the seers of Truth.

>

> avinaasi tu tad viddhu yena sarvam idam tatam (Verse 17)

> vinaasam avyayasya ‘sya na kas'cit kartum arhati

> Know thou that by which all this is pervaded is indestructible. Of this

> immutable being, no one can bring about the destruction.

>

>

 

Namaste.

 

I am glad that Shri Ram Chandran started this general thread of Bhagavad

Gita and advaita. I have some verses from the BG which I find noteworthy

that will fit nicely under this thread. But, due to the beginning of the

semester and associated teaching committments, I may not be able to do it

right away.

 

But a few comments on BG 2.16, the verse under discussion. My

understanding of the verse is the following, as I was thinking about this

a few weeks ago. The words can be broken the following way:

 

Na asatah vidyate bhAva na abhAva vidyate satah

ubhayo api dr^shhTah antah tu anayoh tattvadarshibhih

 

Meaning of line 1

 

asatah na vidyate bhAvah

 

... Illusory world does not have real existence

 

satah na vidyate abhAvah

 

... The truth (Atman) does not have unreality

 

Meaning of line 2:

 

ubhayorapi: for the truth and the unreality (sat and asat)

anayah: this

antah: the end: definitely (the definite knowledge that sat is sat

and asat is asat)

dr^shhTah: seen

tat: Brahman

 

... The final truth regarding both of these (sat and asat, that sat is

sat and asat is asat) is seen by the knowers of Brahman.

 

 

I think this is an important verse for contrasting sat and asat. Looked in

the context of the earlier two verses 2.14 and 2.15, the contrasat is

between the transient, and changing character of material conditions and

the eternal real unchanging Atman. On one side is the real, unchanging

and hence truly existent Atman and on the other side is its material

embodiment, which is unessential and therefore non-existent. That is,

what is not real cannot endure and what is real endures. Another way to

put it: The body does not endure, and therefore it is unreal and

unessential; The Atman endures, therefore is both real and essential.

This is how the wise men (the knowers of Brahman) understand the truth

of things and the ultimate nature of sat and asat.

 

More on this verse later.

 

> [...]

>

> Madhava asserts that the first part of this verse shows the presence of

> duality! According to Sanskrit grammatical structure, "Vidyate bhaavo"

> and "Vidyate-abhaavah" are both valid expressions and Madhava interprets

> as Vidyate-abhaavah and asserts duality. There is no destruction of the

> un manifest (avyakta) prakriti. Sat of course is indestructible. (Dwaita

> Philosophy)

>

 

A swamiji (adherent of dvaita philosophy) visiting our place last year

interpreted Isha upanishhad verse in the same way. There is no destruction

of matter (it transforms from one form to the other) and hence is real.

The sat, of course, is real and hence the duality !

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------