Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 Namaste, I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal question which is becoming a real problem for me. Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is emphasized In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a spiritual master, the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is said in many places that progress without a guru is impossible. From another hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate guru, and works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible to learn without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, although it is more difficult. Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct receiving of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required first? Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to look carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was blessed with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. The gate was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is feel to be lead and intense longing for it. Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and feel lost. I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in the university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my attempts, the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the morning. I would appreciate if you share your personal experience, theoretical speculations or advice on the possible ways to overcome the lack of personal guidance. Thank you. Lilia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 That was a rather touching letter. I would only like to point out, if you are not already aware, the works of J. Krishnamurthy. He repeatedly and emphatically says that one should be one's won light and guide. I think he is quite clearly 'against' the traditional notion of a Guru. At one point, however, I remember him clarifying/elaborating: that his idea in negating the notion of Guru is that one should not centralize all learning into one source/person, as it is likely to happen with an adopted Guru. On the other hand, one should be open to learning from all and any source. This would open one up and make the search a inclusive rather than an exclusive one. For it seems that only then can renunciation be 'true' conflict free one. And it is a traditional notion that the Truth is left behind to see once the obstacles drop off. Good luck Prabhakar Chitrapu. > ---------- > Lilia Stepanova[sMTP:ls691035] > Reply advaitin > Monday, September 21, 1998 2:43 PM > advaitin > Guru > > Lilia Stepanova <ls691035 > > > Namaste, > > I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal question which > is becoming a real problem for me. > Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is emphasized > In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a spiritual master, > the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is said in > many places that progress without a guru is impossible. From another > hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate guru, and > works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible to learn > without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, although it is > more difficult. > Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct receiving > of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required first? > > Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to look > carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in > search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was blessed > with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. The gate > was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is feel to > be lead and intense longing for it. > Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and feel lost. > I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in the > university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my attempts, > the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the morning. > > I would appreciate if you share your personal experience, theoretical > speculations or advice on the possible ways to overcome the lack of > personal guidance. Thank you. > > Lilia > > > > ------ > To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > ------ > Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true meaning, > profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the non-duality between > mind and matter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 Namaste to All, Dear Lilia, Last night I read an interview with Swami Dayananda in which he maintained the truth is always the case during every moment, in every perception and not just during our glimpses of truth. The truth can't come and go. What can come and go is our inadequate interpretation of experience and for a correct interpretation of experience he says the one unerring source of guidance is the Vedas. Presumably, by Vedas he would include an interpretative guide to the Vedas (ie. guru) who together can correct our inadequate interpretation of experience so that we see how every experience is actually the non-dual truth. Like you I've had many such "glimpses of the truth" but what I wondered was the difference between "glimpses" and non-glimpses? How could I get the glimpse to last? This is what Dayananda says is the problem with non-Vedic interpretations of experience. Because I failed to understand experience in general I wrongly interpreted some experience as "a glimpse of truth" and other experience as "not a glimpse of truth". This leads to a very painful struggle to try to make a particular kind of experience last forever which is futile and incorrect compared to realizing how any and all experience is already non-dual. I can't say whether it was the "Vedic" interpretation or grace or what, but for some reason while reading the interview it occured to me that the root instance of duality (for me) has always been the implied separation between thinker and thought. For some reason I can't explain I just realized that there is no separation between thinker and thought. Thought is INSIDE and not outside. In fact there seems to be no "outside". There is only here and there is no edge beyond which is a "there". Everything is happening INSIDE. I am before, during and beyond every thought and while thoughts are arising and disappearing inside me, I am unchanged. I am not different or separate from any part of this experience of the universe. The universe is none other than this experience I am. Glory be to me (and to all others who are the very same non-dual functioning) .... P.S. Can some knowledgeable list member please tell me about Swami Dayananda and where I can find some of his books? If a single interview can be so effective, imagine what a whole book could do !!! :-) Thanks in advance and JOY to all. Lilia Stepanova <ls691035 > > >Namaste, > >I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal question which >is becoming a real problem for me. >Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is emphasized >In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a spiritual master, >the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is said in >many places that progress without a guru is impossible. From another >hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate guru, and >works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible to learn >without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, although it is >more difficult. >Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct receiving >of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required first? > >Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to look >carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in >search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was blessed >with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. The gate >was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is feel to >be lead and intense longing for it. >Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and feel lost. >I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in the >university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my attempts, >the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the morning. > >I would appreciate if you share your personal experience, theoretical >speculations or advice on the possible ways to overcome the lack of >personal guidance. Thank you. > >Lilia > > > >------------------------------- -------- >To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription >to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and >select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. >------------------------------- -------- >Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true meaning, profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the non-duality between mind and matter > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 Greetings: Beautifully said! Swami Dayananda, a disciple of Swami Chinmayananda is the head of Arsha Vidya Gurukulam (Institute of Vedanta and Sanskrit), located in New Jersy State. Please Visit the Website and it contains information about their program, books, etc. URL: http://www.arshavidya.org/ Arsha Vidya means the knowledge flowing from the Rishis - the great seers of ancient India. Arsha Vidya Gurukulam offers Indians and Westerners alike an opportunity to study the profound spiritual knowledge of the Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Brahma-sutras, and other classical Vedic texts. I have visited the Ashram several times and have listened to Swamiji motivational spiritual discourses. a c wrote: > > "a c" <ac > > Namaste to All, > > Dear Lilia, > > Last night I read an interview with Swami Dayananda in which he > maintained the truth is always the case during every moment, in > every perception and not just during our glimpses of truth. The > truth can't come and go. What can come and go is our inadequate > interpretation of experience and for a correct interpretation of > experience he says the one unerring source of guidance is the > Vedas. Presumably, by Vedas he would include an interpretative > guide to the Vedas (ie. guru) who together can correct our > inadequate interpretation of experience so that we see how every > experience is actually the non-dual truth. > > Like you I've had many such "glimpses of the truth" but what I > wondered was the difference between "glimpses" and non-glimpses? > How could I get the glimpse to last? This is what Dayananda says > is the problem with non-Vedic interpretations of experience. > Because I failed to understand experience in general I wrongly > interpreted some experience as "a glimpse of truth" and other > experience as "not a glimpse of truth". This leads to a very > painful struggle to try to make a particular kind of experience > last forever which is futile and incorrect compared to realizing > how any and all experience is already non-dual. > > I can't say whether it was the "Vedic" interpretation or grace or > what, but for some reason while reading the interview it occured > to me that the root instance of duality (for me) has always been > the implied separation between thinker and thought. For some > reason I can't explain I just realized that there is no > separation between thinker and thought. Thought is INSIDE and > not outside. In fact there seems to be no "outside". There is > only here and there is no edge beyond which is a "there". > Everything is happening INSIDE. I am before, during and beyond > every thought and while thoughts are arising and disappearing > inside me, I am unchanged. I am not different or separate from > any part of this experience of the universe. The universe is > none other than this experience I am. > > Glory be to me (and to all others who are the very same non-dual > functioning) .... > > P.S. > > Can some knowledgeable list member please tell me about Swami > Dayananda and where I can find some of his books? If a single > interview can be so effective, imagine what a whole book could do > !!! :-) Thanks in advance and JOY to all. > > Lilia Stepanova <ls691035 > > > > > >Namaste, > > > >I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal > question which > >is becoming a real problem for me. > >Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is > emphasized > >In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a > spiritual master, > >the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is > said in > >many places that progress without a guru is impossible. From > another > >hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate > guru, and > >works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible > to learn > >without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, > although it is > >more difficult. > >Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct > receiving > >of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required > first? > > > >Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to > look > >carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in > >search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was > blessed > >with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. > The gate > >was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is > feel to > >be lead and intense longing for it. > >Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and > feel lost. > >I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in > the > >university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my > attempts, > >the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the > morning. > > > >I would appreciate if you share your personal experience, > theoretical > >speculations or advice on the possible ways to overcome the lack > of > >personal guidance. Thank you. > > > >Lilia > > > > > > > >------------------------------- > -------- > >To from this mailing list, or to change your > subscription > >to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at > and > >select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > >------------------------------- > -------- > >Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true > meaning, profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the > non-duality between mind and matter > > > > ------ > To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > ------ > Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true meaning, profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the non-duality between mind and matter -- Ram Chandran Burke, VA 22015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 1998 Report Share Posted September 21, 1998 Greetings Lilia, you wrote: ->I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal question which ->is becoming a real problem for me. Is this not an open forum inquiry ? Are we not here for Sharing and Helping and Asking questions ? I bid you please do not apologize for asking questions, for the only *dumb question* is the one that is not asked. ->Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is emphasized ->In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a spiritual master, ->the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is said in ->many places that progress without a guru is impossible. Ah yes, conditioned thinking at it's finest. Though personal contact with one who IS Awakening is of paramount value, it is not the most necessary element in our Awakening. Neither the Scriptures nor Wise Sages nor Gurus can be much more than Pointers for others. No one Saves us but ourselves, no one can and no one may, others can point to the Path, but we ourselves must Walk the Way. ->From another ->hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate guru, and ->works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible to learn ->without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, although it is ->more difficult. And what is Brahman if not our own Inner Divine Nature. Indeed, Awakening our Inner Divine Nature IS the Guru of Gurus. Real Gurus, that is. The Gita, as well as most world Scriptures, tell us to Dwell IN the Source. And where is the Source but Within. ->Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct receiving ->of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required first? As our Good Friend Prabhakar pointed out, Krishnamurti said that the bottom line is that our greatest Guru is Within. Others such as Siddhartha and Jesus as well as many others have said that we must be lamps unto ourselves. But being "a lamp unto thyself" comes with a *qualifier*. Before we can Dwell IN the Silence of the Moment we must discard all Veils that block our Awakening. Jesus called them "influences" and Siddhartha called them "causes" and Jiddu called them "social mental contents", and what these men were talking about was none other than our conditioned thinking and behavior. We can not Dwell IN the Source, we can not Realize Brahman or Divine Nature as Guru, if we are encumbered with these conditionings. If we do try to be Gurus to ourselves and yet still conditioned, we will merely reinforce our own conditionings. This is not Awakening, but rather convincing ourselves that we are while still Sleeping. ->Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to look ->carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in ->search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was blessed ->with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. The gate ->was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is feel to ->be lead and intense longing for it. Brahman is not outside you. For what we Seek, will always elude us. For what we look for, we will never See. All Awakening is the Realization of Truth Within. No matter where you go, there you are. So I offer to look or go no further than where you ARE right NOW this very instant present Moment. For this is where you will Realize Brahman. May I also offer that that fleeting glimpse was perhaps your own projection of a preconceived notion of what you wanted to glimpse. If we discard the conditionings and Dwell Within IN the Moment, Moment to Moment, the *glimpse* will be Eternity. ->Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and feel lost. ->I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in the ->university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my attempts, ->the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the morning. Return to where ? Return to what ? It is good to know where we have been, and good to know where we are going, but Reality rests in neither the past nor the future. There is but one Moment of Reality, and that Moment is this very present instant Moment carried on IN the next Moment, Moment to Moment, establishing Reality as a continuous Realization of What-IS. Again, I bid you look not further than where you ARE. ___ {~ ~} ~~~~~~~~~~oo0~(_)~0oo~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We are not all crazy -- It is all in our head, You have to seek your own salvation -- In the end the final truth is between the lines instead, The narrow path gets harder to find -- It is not what is done but rather a state of mind. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, }`-`{ http://www.Light-Mission.org "On this Path effort never goes to waste and never a failure" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1998 Report Share Posted September 22, 1998 Perfectly put and really, no need to read on unless that be your nature to further celebrate Truth. Jon Evans a c wrote: > "a c" <ac > > Namaste to All, > > Dear Lilia, > > Last night I read an interview with Swami Dayananda in which he > maintained the truth is always the case during every moment, in > every perception and not just during our glimpses of truth. The > truth can't come and go. What can come and go is our inadequate > interpretation of experience and for a correct interpretation of > experience he says the one unerring source of guidance is the > Vedas. Presumably, by Vedas he would include an interpretative > guide to the Vedas (ie. guru) who together can correct our > inadequate interpretation of experience so that we see how every > experience is actually the non-dual truth. > > Like you I've had many such "glimpses of the truth" but what I > wondered was the difference between "glimpses" and non-glimpses? > How could I get the glimpse to last? This is what Dayananda says > is the problem with non-Vedic interpretations of experience. > Because I failed to understand experience in general I wrongly > interpreted some experience as "a glimpse of truth" and other > experience as "not a glimpse of truth". This leads to a very > painful struggle to try to make a particular kind of experience > last forever which is futile and incorrect compared to realizing > how any and all experience is already non-dual. > > I can't say whether it was the "Vedic" interpretation or grace or > what, but for some reason while reading the interview it occured > to me that the root instance of duality (for me) has always been > the implied separation between thinker and thought. For some > reason I can't explain I just realized that there is no > separation between thinker and thought. Thought is INSIDE and > not outside. In fact there seems to be no "outside". There is > only here and there is no edge beyond which is a "there". > Everything is happening INSIDE. I am before, during and beyond > every thought and while thoughts are arising and disappearing > inside me, I am unchanged. I am not different or separate from > any part of this experience of the universe. The universe is > none other than this experience I am. > > Glory be to me (and to all others who are the very same non-dual > functioning) .... > > P.S. > > Can some knowledgeable list member please tell me about Swami > Dayananda and where I can find some of his books? If a single > interview can be so effective, imagine what a whole book could do > !!! :-) Thanks in advance and JOY to all. > > Lilia Stepanova <ls691035 > > > > > >Namaste, > > > >I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal > question which > >is becoming a real problem for me. > >Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is > emphasized > >In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a > spiritual master, > >the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is > said in > >many places that progress without a guru is impossible. From > another > >hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate > guru, and > >works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible > to learn > >without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, > although it is > >more difficult. > >Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct > receiving > >of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required > first? > > > >Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to > look > >carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in > >search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was > blessed > >with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. > The gate > >was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is > feel to > >be lead and intense longing for it. > >Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and > feel lost. > >I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in > the > >university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my > attempts, > >the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the > morning. > > > >I would appreciate if you share your personal experience, > theoretical > >speculations or advice on the possible ways to overcome the lack > of > >personal guidance. Thank you. > > > >Lilia > > > > > > > >------------------------------- > -------- > >To from this mailing list, or to change your > subscription > >to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at > and > >select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > >------------------------------- > -------- > >Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true > meaning, profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the > non-duality between mind and matter > > > > ------ > To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > ------ > Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true meaning, profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the non-duality between mind and matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1998 Report Share Posted September 22, 1998 >Lilia Stepanova <ls691035 Lilia - If you allow me, I would like to paraphrase your questions: Do we need a guru? - should it be in human form? Ans. It depends. Is chanting of mantra effective if it not given by a Guru? Ans: yes. since he is your teacher who knows you. Is progress possible without a Guru? Ans: yes. Ultimately your ownself is the guru. But external teacher helps to overcome confused or conflicting experiences. If you have the audicity to reject all the experiences and have a keen intellect to look for the experiencer not the experiences, then you have already found the right guru.. How to prolong the peaceful mements of inner experiences? By not longing for them and by shifting your attention from the experiences to experiencer who is eternally present to prolong as long as you want! -------------------- Shree Chitrapu, Prabhakar, a.c., E.J. and J.E (looks like we have varied alphabets) have answered beautifully and reading from them mails, most of them are quite familiar with JK's approach to the topic of discussion. I would like to presents my two cents based on my own experience and understanding. There is no right answer in all these, the right answer you have to arrive at based on your own mental make up. First I want to address JK's answers to the question based on my own experience. At one stage in my life, I was exposed to J.K. writings (He does not like them to be referred to as teachings); I studied all most of all of his books including his biography (by Marry Luttens), Theosophical Societies booklets, and the very first book attributed to him - "At the feet of the Master" (he had a different theosophical name); After reading his books, I decided I do not need a teacher, throw away all my vedanta books, decided Gods and prayers are expressions of slavish conditioned mind, revolted anything and everything that is traditional, since I was convinced that it is a byproduct of conditioning, and in the process became agnostic or even an atheist. Needless to say, in a subtler way, I am conditioning my self in a different mold in trying to unconditioned myself from the burdens of eons of traditions and beliefs. I was keenly aware of that part of the JK's teachings too - that one can get trapped from one conditioning to the other - from iron shackles to silver shackles - I quoted profusely everywhere JK's statement that "truth is a pathless land"; without knowing what it means, only because any path one takes, one will be conditioning one self. I want to be free from all conditionings, yet in the very desire to be free from conditioning, I was in a subtler way getting conditioned in one form or the other. Yet I was, where I was before I was exposed to JK, only if at all more confused. Only way to get out of conditioning is not to embark another path as that puts one into another conditioning. My rational intellect was warning me on one side that even avoiding any particular path is itself another way of conditioning of the mind. So what to do - you cannot ask JK that question either, since following his answer or any body else's answer as he says, puts one back to new conditioning - new shackles. I was becoming desperate -The scientific training in me added more fuel to my confusion. I started questioning JK's approach - One side he suggests that I should observe my mind, not follow any path, to get out of my conditioning. I tried that and every time I tried before I know it, I was lost in thoughts. I have no idea of what to observe and how to observe; and you cannot ask JK these questions since following any X,Y,Z puts one to new conditioning. I thought there is something wrong with me. I started observing the so-called followers of JK to see if they are gaining something that I am not able to gain. ( It was funny - I encountered one Lady in one of the JK lectures, who apparently has been traveling with him and claimed to have many personal interviews with JK - (JK may not be aware of these - like any where else or any other guru, one has to pass many layers of disciples-blocks in order to talk to the main person) - this lady proudly told me that she has been following JK for the past 10 years - I told her that she was crazy, how could anyone follow JK when he does not want anyone to follow him- her face became red and stared at me and left me without answering). As I met many JK 'followers', I began to realize that everyone one of them is one way or the other hanging on to him for a helping hand - they do not use the traditional words and some even despise those words such as, guru, teaching etc., they laugh in his lectures when he ridicules the gurus, traditions etc. without realizing that what is ridiculing is not the gurus or traditions but that which make minds to get trapped into conditioning. I read his biography and his letters to Annebesent (spelling?) and started wondering - would JK be what he is today if he had not gone through what he went through. ( I donot know how many people read his biography - Marry Luttens is a good one to read). Would he be giving lectures about the highest philosophical truths, if Led Beater(sp?) did not pick him up at the Sea shore, when he was eleven years old, by looking at his astral body radiating, deciding that he is close to become a Messiah; would he have written the book "at the feet of the Masters" (we will never know who really wrote that book), would he be what he is today if he did not go though so much of internal churning as he and his brother Nitya did (by the by Nitya died young) - one should read JK's articles when he was still associated with theosophical society - I began to realize that all that background life was all that sadhana required and without that I wondered if ever be possible for him to be at the stage where he is adored by his followers. Looking back even now, I am wondering if any of the followers have grown beyond their own conditionings, or have they entrapped themselves that they are beyond conditionings and in that process entrapped themselves in another form of conditioning. From my own point, I felt relieved that I am not the only one who is confused; they are others who claim themselves as followers of JK. I began to realize that getting out of condition is very difficult (that conclusion itself might have conditioned my mind) if not impossible. Of course I could also give lectures that ones mind is conditioned by education, by tradition etc., but that is meaningless unless I can talk from state of mind which is free from all conditioning. Unconditioning cannot be a process since any process conditions the mind. Yet the mind needs to get out of conditioning. I am unable to observe the mind since every time I tried I am lost with the mind, without my knowledge. I was up against the wall! - I throw away even JK books, deciding that what they teach is impractical. But with the scientific curiosity, the questioning mind still remained about what is life and what is this universe, why me here and why pray and why not pray etc. After reading JK books, I lost any devotion that I had; - ( it is like saying in telugu - I did not learn how to walk like a swan at the same time in trying to imitate the swan I forgot how to walk like a crow). When I am in that confused stage, I got exposed to lectures of Swami Chinmayananda. ( by the by as Sri Ramachandran pointed out he is the teacher of Swami Dayananda too, although he does not acknowledge that openly after he left Chinmaya Mission - I used to organize Swami Dayananda's lectures too and learned a lot from him). Not that I wanted to attend, nor I was looking for any guru, but my wife dragged me to the lectures, since we were close by and we did not have anything else planned for that day; I followed her. That was a turning point in my life. I began to see the beauty in vedanta teaching. I understood what exactly conditioning means. Advaita vedanta recognizes that 'truth is indeed a path less land', the path is not for the truth, but the path or sadhana is for purification of the mind. JK is right that one has to observe the mind to know what that mind is, for it to get out of conditioning. But one cannot observe the mind, unless one has the capacity to stand apart to observe the mind. It needs to detach itself for it to observe itself. We donot want a dirty plate, but to clean it we put a detergent which we donot want it either, but in the process of washing we get rid of not only the original dirt but also the detergent. The plate is in its original clean state. We cannot use any detergent, we need to use that which can remove the dirt. Yogas, karma, bhakti and JNaana are all means not to realize the truth but are means to purify the mind so that it can do the job what JK advocates - stand apart and observe, observe the thoughts and the silence in between the thoughts. I saw the beauty even in JK's teachings, but with clear understanding of the whole. I also recognized that I was not looking for a teacher, but Lord has provided me the teacher I needed. My teacher may not know and need not know that he is my teacher, but I know in my heart that I was guided and helped to get out of the confused state I was in. The whole life became a different meaning. It was a completely a hundred 180 turn - turn to the best, I feel. Every thing fitted in a Jig-saw puzzle. I see the meaning in every thing. I see the meaning in all paths, all are trying to point to the higher, which is beyond any path. The more I read Vedanta texts the more my mind become humble admiring the depth to which they have quenched the inquisitive minds. Words cannot express my gratitude to my teacher, he came without my asking, opened my confused mind and pushed me in the direction I need to travel, showed me how to enjoy the life to the best. Looking back I see why I needed a guru. But yet I was not looking for a guru. I realize that I gave my history instead of answering your questions directly, with the hope you may find the answer. But here are my suggestions: No, you do not have to go looking for a teacher. You will never find a teacher that way. A flower does not have to go in serach of a bee, a bee will come when the flower is ready or evolved. Teacher comes in different forms, including the books that you can read and friends that can help, and even as this adviatin-L discussion group. Guru is the one who dispels your ignorance, you will discover in your mind, who is your guru not some one comes and says I am your guru. What you have, you have use to the best - what you have is a mind and an intellect - use them to maximum - keep that inquiring mind. Read the books that help, have the intellect not to accept anything nor reject anything, but be ready to examine the truths expounded. As others pointed out, what we are looking for are not experiences, since experiences are time bound. What is needed is the knowledge about the experiences. One can learn from experiences, provided one has a keen intellect to inquire the truth behind the experiences. I found vedanta makes the mind to inquire, makes it subtle to go beyond the experiences to discover the truth. I also find to my surprise even in vedanta, people can bogged down to traditions and paths loosing the vision of the vedanta. This is one of the reason I got out of advaita-L. Do not long for experiences, since the very longing for those, make them run away from you, since the mind is not free to experience. Never loose sight of what vedanta is pointing out. Paths are realive and absolute is not. Just examine who is the experiencer behind all the coming and going experiences. Examine the examiner. Yes ultimately your own consciousness is the internal guru. Have that confidence and faith. The purpose of the external guru is exactly that - to establish that. If you have that you already have a guru. Do not worry about the Mantras and tantras - there are there to quieten the mind, but with your training, you can achieve that by an inquiring mind. Yes mantras become more powerful when the teacher gives, since you have that faith in that teacher; and teacher also gives an appropriate mantra that suites your mental makeup and value system. But what you are looking for is not mantra, but a mind free from agitations. Use the name of Lord in the form that you are used to do, as an aid to help in quietening the mind. But that is only a tool to make the mind in a position to inquire. Remember knowledge is the solution. For knowledge, mind should be in a position to inquiry. Even a repetition "who am I" thousands of times will not lead you any where, since it is not just repetition but an inquiry of who I am? - That is exactly what vedanta teaches. And that is exactly the purpose of this discussions using advaitin-L. If I have confused you more, I am sorry. Hari Om! Sadananda K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1998 Report Share Posted September 22, 1998 On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Lilia Stepanova wrote: > Lilia Stepanova <ls691035 > > > Namaste, > > I am asking for apology for intrusion with rather personal question which > is becoming a real problem for me. > Everywhere the nessessity of a guru for some one's progress is emphasized > In Padma PurAna it is stated "Unless one is guided by a spiritual master, > the mantra that one has received is without any effect". It is said in > many places that progress without a guru is impossible. From another > hand, in Bhagavat Gita it is said that Brahman is the ultimate guru, and > works of others like Sri Aurobindo suggest that it IS possible to learn > without the human guru if address directly to the Brahman, although it is > more difficult. > Do other great masters discuss the possibility of direct receiving > of the guidance from the Supreme or human guidance is required first? > > Many circumstances did not give me an opportunity of even to look > carefully for a guru. Instead I mounted mountains of books in > search and turned to Brahman for guidance. And, indeed, I was blessed > with the glimpse of the Supreme. Once, about half a year ago. The gate > was nether open again since. But it gave me a sense of how it is feel to > be lead and intense longing for it. > Since than I was unable to return to state I was once in, and feel lost. > I have little opportunity to meet real people outside my work in the > university since my spouse is not very enthusiastic about my attempts, > the only time at my complete disposal are early hours of the morning. > > I would appreciate if you share your personal experience, theoretical > speculations or advice on the possible ways to overcome the lack of > personal guidance. Thank you. > > Lilia > Namaste. This is a question which most of us have faced (certainly I have faced) at one stage or other in our spiritual progress. Shri Sadananda, a c, E.J, Prabhakar and others have expressed ably their views which I echo. Let me put my experience also in this regard. In a practical way, I have invoked Shri Shankara, the great advaitic philosopher as my guru. I have placed Him in my heart and learnt from the books. It is amazing how well one can learn with a willing and surrendering mind and ego. Things started getting into this body-mind complex and settling there faster and clearer than I have ever thought possible. Shri LalitA trishati, Vishnu sahasranAma and Shri Shanakara's stotrAs have become a part of me without effort. One can begin to see things in a calm quiet nature that while we are part of the world, at the same time we are not part of the world. A guru is useful but in this age and day, it is not possible to have a guru in the vedic tradition. A guru need not be one who takes disciples. Guru is inside each of us and would evolve when we are ready. Further, when we are ready an external guru will come looking for us. That is, we will find the external guru when we are ready. I echo the sentiments expressed by others that the inner Self of you is that Guru. You will see that externally also in various forms. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1998 Report Share Posted September 22, 1998 Namaste, I want to thank everyone who took time to answer my post about guru. I can not describe how delighted I was reading them. Thank you very much again , they put me back in the track. I realize I got confused during reading a book on vedic literature by someone who appears pretty knowledgable and his major point was what without guru you basically can not even to approach books! In distinguishing right and wrong I mostly rely on intuition which often undermine my ability to explain in words WHY to others and sometimes to myself (then I am provoked to explain in sentences to my brain). The apparent contradiction between what I felt is right and what he said was right resulted in some sort of depression and the post. Responces made me feel I asked exactly right people! Thanks for Prabhakar to pointing out Krishnamurti's works. They are in abundance in the bookstore I graze on, but I did NEVER stretch my hand to reach them! It makes me wonder about how much is within the reach and never used. I found some of his articles on the web and now will read his books for sure. Thanks for Sadananda for a discourse and making me aware of some pits, no, you did not confuse me more than I was! Thanks for a c and Ram, I will try to find some works of Swami Dayananda on the web. Thanks to E.J., Raju, Jon and Gummuluru, your answers really helped me a lot. I tried to invoke Sri Aurobindo as a guru some time ago, only to find that most of his experiences were left behind his books, and these left out were exactly the experiences I was looking for. I know the quest for truth goes through lonely ways, and wind is chilling from time to time, but it is kind of reassuring than you cry out "where is everyone?" to hear some voices from the sides "here we are!" or "we were here too". (I know it is dangerous to rely only on the voices, but it IS nice to hear them!) Thanks again everyone for the input to reflect on. Lilia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 1998 Report Share Posted September 22, 1998 Sri Sadananda ji wrote: After reading JK books, I lost any devotion that I had; - ( it is like saying in telugu - I did not learn how to walk like a swan at the same time in trying to imitate the swan I forgot how to walk like a crow). ***** TO: Sri Sadanandaji, My heartly pranam to you Sir, Thank you for sharing your experience. I found in some manner my own stories repited. Your words & experiences are very valuable to me. I am great full to you for sharing. My heart accepts whatever little , I could understand. I thank you & can I please ask you a question ? What is the right way not to loose the divot ion with knowledge. I often find myself swinging from one corner to other & not being anywhere . What I mean is , I love Vedanta teachings , Yoga Basistha , Sri Mad Bhagabatam & Ramayana, I like to contemplet in the teachings of Sri Sankara or other teachers about the self understnding. At the same time , I also like to do Kirtana, & Bhajan. Is there any way yoy can suggest, that I can continue both like Knowledge with full of divotion. I want to seek that knowledge without loosing whatever little bhakti I may have ? Please pardon me my prctices has been like elephant bath. I do not have bairagye & my practice is very little. Namaste. Raju Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1998 Report Share Posted September 23, 1998 At 08:52 AM 9/22/98 -0400, Jon Evans wrote: >Jon Evans <zenman > >Perfectly put and really, no need to read on unless that be your nature to further celebrate >Truth. Jon Evans > >a c wrote: > >> "a c" <ac >> >> Namaste to All, >> >> Dear Lilia, >> >> Last night I read an interview with Swami Dayananda in which he >> maintained the truth is always the case during every moment, in >> every perception and not just during our glimpses of truth. To a c and Lilia -- Sorry for the late intrusion, but isn't the interview with Swami Dayananda the one in the latest issue of Andrew Cohen's magazine WHAT IS ENLIGHTENMENT?. It was a wonderful interview! --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 1998 Report Share Posted September 23, 1998 Just a short note to express the warm feelings brought about by the correspondence on THE GURU. Thanks to the experience and wisdom of Prabhakar, frank, Ram, ac, Raju, E.J., Sadananda, Gummuluru and others, Lilia has received the loving distillation of many years of thought, effort, meditation and wisdom. What an excellent thing that the Advaitin list exists for her to pose her question on! As for myself, years earlier I had labored and gone back and forth between viewpoints, like Sadananda, and invoked my own guru in Ramana Maharshi; then Shankaracharya, like Gummuluru. For me, these things didn't work, since it was clear that "I" was doing them in a calculated way, tainting the process with my own doership. After a while, "I" stopped thinking about it, and after a while saw that Grace had answered the question without the slightest intervention or participation on my part! Sorry I didn't respond in kind, I was travelling and am now in Tokyo. Does anyone in advaitin-L-land know someone in Tokyo they would like me to carry a greeting to? --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1998 Report Share Posted September 24, 1998 At 02:52 AM 9/23/98 EDT, Raju100 wrote: >What is the right way not to loose the divot ion with knowledge. I often find >myself swinging from one corner to other & not being anywhere . What I mean is >, I love Vedanta teachings , Yoga Basistha , Sri Mad Bhagabatam & Ramayana, I >like to contemplet in the teachings of Sri Sankara or other teachers about the >self understnding. At the same time , I also like to do Kirtana, & Bhajan. Is >there any way yoy can suggest, that I can continue both like Knowledge with >full of divotion. I want to seek that knowledge without loosing whatever >little bhakti I may have ? Please pardon me my prctices has been like elephant >bath. I do not have bairagye & my practice is very little. >Namaste. Raju, Here is a short essay from Sri Atmananda of Tivandrum, that bears precisely on your point -- once you have visualized the Truth at least once, how/why continue bhakti and karma yoga? His answer is practical and beautiful: >From PART I of SPIRITUAL DISCOURSES OF SREE ATMANANDA, 16th September, 1951: WHAT IS THE ROYAL ROAD TO TRUTH? ================================ Q: And what is the purpose of Karma Yoga, Karma Sanyasa, Raja Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, etc.? A: All these are supposed to be margas (means) to the attainment of the Truth. But in fact no marga or course of practice or exercise by itself is capable of leading one to the Truth. Hearing the Truth from the lips of the Guru alone is the means to Realization or Jnana. That is the royal road to Truth. For one who has attained Jnana this way only recently, any of the margas described in the scriptures, if practiced in the light of Jnana already attained, will be helpful in establishing oneself firmly in the Sahaja state.(* see below) Without this preliminary attainment of Jnana, no amount of effort by itself in any of the margas could be of any avail to establish one in the Truth. Sree Kumili Swami(yogin disciple of Atmananda's) is himself a living example of this. So these margas acquire meaning and are of practical usefulness, only after one has gained jnana from one's Guru. But all of them prepare the ground beautifully well even before hand. (* This is a kind of permanent samadhi, where you are knowingly in Knowledge and Love even in the midst of apparent thoughts, feelings, activities, etc. Unlike Shankara, Atmananda emphasized this (non)-state.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 1998 Report Share Posted September 24, 1998 hariH OM, shaanthi, and prem to all new members! **** regarding the matter of and attitude toward guru, it depends on what one is exposed to in the Heart, and how it gets thus translated by the mind. my experience has brought me to see the guru in the whole of manifestation, as well as potentially in *any* part, irrespective of its guna qualities. as we know, if we recognize our dharma to sacrifice the ancient delusion of ego, the guru will reveal itself in our midst, where it has ever *been*! it can take on any form. whether conforming to the orthodox approach or not, so long as it is seated in the Heart. this is the basis of everything. **** Re Greg's question about my wife being my guru: yes, as long as I'm in a body, she will be among my gurus. namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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