Shaastra as PramaaNa

[Guest guest]

Recently I had a very fruitful and enjoyable discussion on

vedantamission with Sri Swami Atmanandaji relating to PramaaNa.

For the benefit of others and with the permission of Swamiji, I am

presenting here an abridged version. For more details and also for further

information about the Vedantamission, please refer to the referenced list

serve.

----------------

Swamiji was discussing Bhagavaan Shankara's introduction to Sri Sureswara's

Naishkarmya Siddhi wherein a reference was made that Vedanta Shaatra is the

only pramaaNa.

 

The points of my discussion are:

 

1. I am sat and chit is self evident and I am ananda can be deduced by the

analysis of ones experience.

2.Hence that I am sat, chit and ananda can be deduced without the help of

the scriptures.

3. Ananda, that I am, has to be unlimited since any limitations gives

sorrow.

 

These are logical deductions based on ones experience. Then why claim

Shaastra as the only PramaaNa. It is recognized, of course, that logical

understanding is not the same as the factual understanding. But that

statement can be made about the understanding of scriptures too.

 

Following is the Swamiji's response (in my words) to my query. Swamiji is

standing by to jump in to make further clarifications, if needed. I am

sure that Swamiji will be happy to answer any further questions related to

the topic.

 

1. All other parmesans including logic require further confirmation by

other means such as perception etc. Without further confirmation by other

means logic itself becomes illogical.

2. That which is beyond logic cannot be further confirmed by other PramaaNa

( excluding shaastra PramaaNa.)

3. The way I have used the logic is only to confirm that the shaastraas are

logical, and now claim that I do not need shaastra to prove I am satyam

JNaanam Anantam. It is like discarding the boat as redundant after

crossing the river. ( This statement is indeed true, since I was really

lost and became even agnostic till I was exposed to Vedanta Teaching

through SravaNam)

4. PramaaNa is an independent means (means of knowledge) for aligning

pramaata (knower) and prameya(known). The object to be known has to be 1.

anaadhigatam (unknown earlier) , 2. asandigdham (free from all doubts) and

3. abaadhitam (non-negatable by any other pramana). PramaaNa being a

means, it does belong to the apara vidya category, yet in the case of

shaastra pramaaNa, that is not a limitation since it aligns the pramaata

and Prameya.( It is similar to the path provided, to go beyond the path -

like pole Walt).

5. Shaastra PramaaNa is not for knowing one self as oneself but one self as

the total self(Brahmaswaruupatvam).

 

In my mind I thought I was deducing that Brahmaswaruupatwam logically by

deducing that anatameva anandaH, limitless alone is happiness; since I am

ananda, I must be limitless to be ananda, since any limitation makes me

unhappy. But as Swamiji points out there is no means to prove that one is

limitless by any other pramaaNa. Obviously other pramaaNaas such as

perception etc. are of no use. The logic has to rest in either in shaastra

as pramaaNa or by ones own personal experience of one self as total self.

In my case, if I realize the truth, it is only because the boat has done

its job already. Essentially I am using the logic to prove that the

statement of shaastraas are indeed true.

 

6. Most importantly sravana, manana and niddidhyasana together contribute

to complete the process of realization handling all the three aspects

respectively(see item no 4). Real knowledge however dawns in sravana

itself.

 

7. Shastraas are the product of the experimental confirmation by great

many sages like any other objective sciences. One can of course reinvent

the wheel starting from zero without taking the help of the sciences, but

that is a not only unintelligent approach but also time consuming and prone

to errors. Intelligent approach is to take the advantage of the published

work to go beyond. (It is like rediscovering the gravitational force. Even

the existence of the force is beyond the boutika shaastra(physics), yet the

shaastra provides a means to gain the knowledge. If I have to rediscover

F=ma, without using the shaastraa, it would take umpteen more years.) In

subjective science, this becomes even more critical since there is no

further confirmation to know the path, the direction that one is going and

the goal are the right ones. Hence Shaastra becomes the only valid

PramaaNa.

 

8. Finally, even if one realizes, there is no way to communicate to the

others without using shaastraas as PramaaNa, confirming that his experience

aligns with that elucidated in shaastraas. (Interestingly the

qualifications of a true guru are not only the one who has realized but one

who has the knowledge of the shaastraas for valid communication)

 

Obviously I took the occasion to present Sri Swamiji's discussion in the

way I understood, so that if there is any fault in my understanding Swamiji

can correct it.

 

-----------------

I must say that some of these aspects were also mentioned by Vidya and

Anand in my discussions with them in advaitaL. I am grateful to them. I

missed the fact that (a) I was using logic only to confirm what shaastraas

pronounced and (b) there is no valid means to confirm the state other than

shaastra pramaaNa and (3) Even logic needs confirmation and in this

specific case no other pramaaNa is valid other than Shaastraas.

 

I am very grateful to Sri Swami Atmanandaji to bring out these aspects.

Another evidence that one can learn from these discussions.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 sadananda <sada wrote:

> Recently I had a very fruitful and enjoyable discussion on

> vedantamission with Sri Swami Atmanandaji relating to PramaaNa.

 

A very useful article indeed! To highlight just three points:

> 5. Shaastra PramaaNa is not for knowing one self as oneself but one self as

> the total self(Brahmaswaruupatvam).

 

That makes nonsense of any notion of MY spritual development: there

is nothing in it for ME. And ultimately even mumukshutva must be

surrendered. The sense is rather of a journey from vyashTi to samashTi.

> 7. Shastraas are the product of the experimental confirmation by great

> many sages like any other objective sciences.

 

And ultimately to be confirmed in direct experience for oneself, and

not merely a belief system or ideology. Practical stuff!

> 8. Finally, even if one realizes, there is no way to communicate to the

> others without using shaastraas as PramaaNa, confirming that his experience

> aligns with that elucidated in shaastraas.

 

That point is particularly meaningful to me. The principle is also valid

at the worldly level: communication becomes rather confused without a

common meaning associated with words and technical terms, for which we

have dictionaries and text books as shaastra-s.

 

Thanks for sharing that!

 

Regards, Charles.

[Guest guest]

>Charles Wikner <WIKNER

>

>That makes nonsense of any notion of MY spritual development: there

>is nothing in it for ME. And ultimately even mumukshutva must be

>surrendered. The sense is rather of a journey from vyashTi to samashTi.

 

True - even the sense of journey is born of mumukshutvam.

Ultimately it is a realization that there is nothing to realize.

Some JNaani said - "Ignorance I never had, I lost!"

 

As long as I am seeking I cannot find it - Until I find it I can not but

seek- Just like going to sleep. Just keep knocking the door in the

direction pointed by Shaastraas - the door shall open.

 

There is a beautiful slokas in Avadhuuta Geeta by Bhagavan Dattatreya.

shivam na jaanaami katham vadaami

shivam na jaanaami katham bhajaami

aham shivaschet paramaatma tatvam

sama swaruupam gaganopamancha||

 

A realized master declares - I do not know Shiva (Dattatreya was in fact a

great Shiva Bhakta), how can I describe him or discuss about Him. I do

not know Shiva, how can I pray to Him.

Because- I am the Shiva, the auspiciousness, and the supreme essence of

reality, I am the very substratum in all without any modification or

perturbations pervading everything like the space, remaining immaculately

pure.

>

>> 7. Shastraas are the product of the experimental confirmation by great

>> many sages like any other objective sciences.

>

>And ultimately to be confirmed in direct experience for oneself, and

>not merely a belief system or ideology. Practical stuff!

 

Yes that is indeed true. Shankara points this aspect about the shaastraas

in the VivekachuuDaamaNi -

 

aviJNaate pare tatve shaastraadiiH tiistu nishpalaa|

viJNaatepi pare tatve shaatraadiiH tiistu nishpala||

 

Study of the shaastraas is useless for the one who has not realized and

study of the shaastraas is useless for the one who has realized

 

The second part is clear - the study of the shaastraas is redundant for the

one who has realized. - the first part is a puzzle - what Bhagavan

obviously imply is that just study of the shaastraas is useless unless one

makes an attempt of purifying the mind and contemplating on the truth

pointed out in the shaastraas. Personal experience is the only

confirmation - otherwise it is just a bookish knowledge.

>

>> 8. Finally, even if one realizes, there is no way to communicate to the

>> others without using shaastraas as PramaaNa, confirming that his experience

>> aligns with that elucidated in shaastraas.

>

>That point is particularly meaningful to me. The principle is also valid

>at the worldly level: communication becomes rather confused without a

>common meaning associated with words and technical terms, for which we

>have dictionaries and text books as shaastraa-s

>Thanks for sharing that!

>

>Regards, Charles.

 

Yes, Swami Atmaanandaji brought out very important points and educated me too.

 

Thanks to you, Swamiji.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623