Guest guest Posted November 27, 1998 Report Share Posted November 27, 1998 the fundamental principle of advaita--or non-duality-- is that there is only brahman in existence, and what therefore can only ever be conceivably perceived is simply brahman. the apparent problem arises with the special exception if/when the perceiver regards his/her object of perception as *apart* from brahman which, by definition, must be an illusion. therefore, in reality, there *cannot* be a duality/plurality in existence--but only ONE Being: ONE satchidananda. "all this is brahman." there is no *real* difference between nirguna and saguna brahman. therefore, the manifestation of brahman, as life, is *not* an illusion. all that we have to remember is to not allow ourselves to isolate or exclusivize any aspect within the spectrum of life. simply because it cannot be drawn out of the totality of brahman, and regarded as something separate. all thoughts are real, all words are real, all actions are real. however, not a single thought, word, or action is real *if* it is considered apart from its substratum essence: the absolute reality brahman. this knowledge confers the infinite awareness, infinite peace, infinite love, and infinite freedom of moksha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 1998 Report Share Posted November 29, 1998 On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, f. maiello wrote: > "f. maiello" <egodust > > the fundamental principle of advaita--or non-duality-- > is that there is only brahman in existence, and what > therefore can only ever be conceivably perceived is > simply brahman. the apparent problem arises with > the special exception if/when the perceiver regards > his/her object of perception as *apart* from brahman > which, by definition, must be an illusion. therefore, > in reality, there *cannot* be a duality/plurality in > existence--but only ONE Being: ONE satchidananda. > Namaste. Shri f. maiello expressed an interesting perspective above. I am not convinced of that perspective and would like to put forward my understanding. Firstly, what is said in the above quote implies that we can perceive Brahman with our human mind. That cannot be the case. All the upanishhads say emphatically that Brahman cannot be perceived by the human mind. Shri Shankara says in VAkyavr^tti in explaining tat of tat tvam asi (verse 29) nirastAsheshha saMsAradoshho'sthUlAdi lakshaNah adr^shyatvAdiguNakah parAkr^tatamomalah 'That' which is free from all impurities of the saMsAra, 'That' which is defined by the upanishhads as not large etc, 'That' which cannot be *seen or perceived* etc (my emphasis), 'That' which is beyond all darkness created by ignorance. That is, Brahman is beyond perception. > "all this is brahman." there is no *real* difference > between nirguna and saguna brahman. therefore, the > manifestation of brahman, as life, is *not* an illusion. > all that we have to remember is to not allow ourselves > to isolate or exclusivize any aspect within the spectrum > of life. simply because it cannot be drawn out of the > totality of brahman, and regarded as something separate. > > all thoughts are real, all words are real, all actions > are real. Secondly, the above seems to be saying that Brahman transforms into various forms which we see. My understanding is that Brahman does not transform into these forms. All these forms are superposed on Brahman, including our vision. There is the substratum which we (I mean by we, the worldly we, the perceiver) cannot grasp with the human intellect. The jagat with all its duality is a superposition, but not transformation of Brahman into jagat. We see duality of the jagat, but we see for what it really is, an illusion. The above statement "... all thoughts are real, all words are real, all actions are real...." contradicts "na iti" of the upanishhads which negates everything we know. I quote another verse (# 27) from VAkyavr^tti in which Shri Shankara explains tvam of tat tvam asi as follows: dehendriya manah prANAhaMkr^tibhyo vilakshaNah projghitASheshhashhaDbhAvavikAra stvam padAbhidhah Totally distinct from body, senses, mind, prANa and ego is that which is the SELF; therefore, it is absolutely free from the six-modifications, which material things must necessarily undergo. This SELF is the indicative meaning of the term 'thou'. > however, not a single thought, word, or > action is real *if* it is considered apart from its > substratum essence: the absolute reality brahman. > > this knowledge confers the infinite awareness, infinite > peace, infinite love, and infinite freedom of moksha. > Taken apart from Brahman, thoughts, words, actions and even jeevas do not exist, hence no need to consider them whether real or illusory. Taken with Brahman (which is the only way we can take anything), the words, actions and thoughts are illusory because they are simply a superposition. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 1998 Report Share Posted November 29, 1998 Gummuluru Murthy says: Firstly, what is said in the above quote implies that we can perceive Brahman with our human mind. That cannot be the case. All the upanishhads say emphatically that Brahman cannot be perceived by the human mind. Shri Shankara says in VAkyavr^tti in explaining tat of tat tvam asi (verse 29) nirastAsheshha saMsAradoshho'sthUlAdi lakshaNah adr^shyatvAdiguNakah parAkr^tatamomalah 'That' which is free from all impurities of the saMsAra, 'That' which is defined by the upanishhads as not large etc, 'That' which cannot be *seen or perceived* etc (my emphasis), 'That' which is beyond all darkness created by ignorance. That is, Brahman is beyond perception. Tamra loves this verse about the heart, not mind: Now, what is here in the city of brahman, is an abode, a small lotus flower. Within that is a small space. What is within that should be searched out; that, assuredly, is what one should desire to understand … as far, verily, as this world-space extends, so far extends the space within the heart. Within it, indeed, are contained both heaven and earth, both fire and wind, both sun and moon, lightning and the stars, both what one possesses here and what one does not possess; everything here is contained within it … that does not grow with one's old age; it is not slain with one's murder. That is the real city of brahman. In it desires are contained. That is the Soul (atman), free from evil, ageless, deathless, sorrowless, hungerless, thirstless, whose desire is the Real, whose conception is the Real." Chandogya Upanishad (8.1.1-4) Shanti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 1998 Report Share Posted November 30, 1998 Gummuluru Murthy wrote: > > Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy > > On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, f. maiello wrote: > > > "f. maiello" <egodust > > > > the fundamental principle of advaita--or non-duality-- > > is that there is only brahman in existence, and what > > therefore can only ever be conceivably perceived is > > simply brahman. the apparent problem arises with > > the special exception if/when the perceiver regards > > his/her object of perception as *apart* from brahman > > which, by definition, must be an illusion. therefore, > > in reality, there *cannot* be a duality/plurality in > > existence--but only ONE Being: ONE satchidananda. > > > > Namaste. > > Shri f. maiello expressed an interesting perspective above. > I am not convinced of that perspective and would like to > put forward my understanding. > > Firstly, what is said in the above quote implies that we can > perceive Brahman with our human mind. That cannot be the case. > All the upanishhads say emphatically that Brahman cannot be > perceived by the human mind. Shri Shankara says in VAkyavr^tti > in explaining tat of tat tvam asi (verse 29) > > nirastAsheshha saMsAradoshho'sthUlAdi lakshaNah > adr^shyatvAdiguNakah parAkr^tatamomalah > > 'That' which is free from all impurities of the saMsAra, > 'That' which is defined by the upanishhads as not large etc, > 'That' which cannot be *seen or perceived* etc (my emphasis), > 'That' which is beyond all darkness created by ignorance. > > That is, Brahman is beyond perception. > > > "all this is brahman." there is no *real* difference > > between nirguna and saguna brahman. therefore, the > > manifestation of brahman, as life, is *not* an illusion. > > all that we have to remember is to not allow ourselves > > to isolate or exclusivize any aspect within the spectrum > > of life. simply because it cannot be drawn out of the > > totality of brahman, and regarded as something separate. > > > > all thoughts are real, all words are real, all actions > > are real. > > Secondly, the above seems to be saying that Brahman transforms > into various forms which we see. My understanding is that > Brahman does not transform into these forms. All these forms > are superposed on Brahman, including our vision. There is the > substratum which we (I mean by we, the worldly we, the perceiver) > cannot grasp with the human intellect. The jagat with all its > duality is a superposition, but not transformation of Brahman > into jagat. We see duality of the jagat, but we see for what it > really is, an illusion. The above statement "... all thoughts are > real, all words are real, all actions are real...." contradicts > "na iti" of the upanishhads which negates everything we know. > I quote another verse (# 27) from VAkyavr^tti in which Shri > Shankara explains tvam of tat tvam asi as follows: > > dehendriya manah prANAhaMkr^tibhyo vilakshaNah > projghitASheshhashhaDbhAvavikAra stvam padAbhidhah > > Totally distinct from body, senses, mind, prANa and ego > is that which is the SELF; therefore, it is absolutely free > from the six-modifications, which material things must necessarily > undergo. This SELF is the indicative meaning of the term 'thou'. > > > however, not a single thought, word, or > > action is real *if* it is considered apart from its > > substratum essence: the absolute reality brahman. > > > > this knowledge confers the infinite awareness, infinite > > peace, infinite love, and infinite freedom of moksha. > > > > Taken apart from Brahman, thoughts, words, actions and even > jeevas do not exist, hence no need to consider them whether > real or illusory. Taken with Brahman (which is the only way > we can take anything), the words, actions and thoughts are > illusory because they are simply a superposition. > hariH OM! it all depends on how one interprets what's being said here--on *all* accounts. the real rope is behind virtually every mayavic snake that is thought, heard, or seen. depending on which aspect of the snake/rope is being beheld through any of the senses, is whether illusion or reality is the 'experience.' if it is the aspect of snake (thus, by definition, being *apart* from the substratum rope), of course it is neti--or 'not this' *in particular*, or as a *thing as such*. if this same aspect of snake is seen for what it *really* is, being regarded--and rightly so--as a superimposition on the substratum brahman, it is no longer perceived as the snake, but as brahman. and i agree there is no relative perception involved, since brahman absolute dissolves all the relative particulars, yet they are also there! and this is the mystery of mysteries without resolution, implied by the idea of brahman's leela. so, the snakes of the world-play or of saguna brahman (brahman in manifestation), if rightly apprehended, are seen to be not different from brahman (as the famous axiom, "all this is brahman," attests). bhagavan ramana said this, in response to whether the world is real or unreal: "the vedantins do not say that the world is unreal. That is a misunderstanding. If they did, what would be the meaning of the text: "all this is brahman" ? they only mean that the world is unreal as world, but it is real as Self. [...] everything, whether you call it world or maya or lila or sakti, must be within the Self and not apart from it." --DAY BY DAY WITH BHAGAVAN, p 233 namaste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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