questions from Tamra

[Guest guest]

>"T. Temple" <joklumji

 

Tampra - You are blessed. Silence is bliss only when the mind understands

what need to be understood. Otherwise silence is only a bliss of

ignorance. Hence Viveka - an intelligent inquiry is the very first

qualification for a seeker of the truth. Ratiocination or mananam in

sanskrit, is essential tool for the inquiry of the truth. As my teacher

used to say, unintelligent questions are only those that were unasked.

You have asked very fundamental questions - Many of these are clarified in

the Self unfoldment book by Swami Chinmayanandaji that I have recommended

to everyone earlier.

 

Here is my attempt to paraphrase your inquiry - What is a soul or Jeeva?

What is time? What is experience? What is death of the body? What is the

death of the soul? How does the reincarnation fit in. What is the role of

memory? What is truth? What is Love? What is service? I picked up these

based on your writing. If we understand these in their essence, then it is

easy to understand their interrelations. Everything then falls in the

right place. We can take up one question at a time and address them.

Others who would like to join the discussions, please feel free to jump in.

 

 

What is Soul? - I will address this from Advaita Vedanta point. Dwaita

and VishishhTaadvaita differ in some respects.

 

Technically - Consciousness (for the time being we can call this as

universal consciousness) identifying with the local equipments as "I am

this" and this and this etc. . - that identified conscious entity is the

Jeeva or Soul. In 'I am this' - there is 'I am' and there is 'this'. I am,

in principle, refers to the total consciousness and this and this are the

objects that I am conscious off - such as I am the body - I am conscious of

my body and hence my body is an object of my consciousness. Hence body is

different from me since object is different from the subject. Yet I take

my self to be the body which is an object or inert. Body constitutes the

sense organs, and organs of action (karmendriya). Through body, I perceive

the objects and also act and interact with the world. Hence without the

body - the consciousness can not act or react! - Just as without a

telescope I cannot see the distant objects or without microscope I can not

see the microscopic objects. Body is a tool but I take myself as the body

- 'dehe pushhTe aham pushhTi - dehe nashhTe aham nashhTi'. When the body is

fat, I am fat and when the body is destroyed I am destroyed - etc. Body is

considered as gross body or sthuula shareera. Next equipments I have are

subtler ones - called mind and intellect - they are together are called

subtle body or suukshma shareera. Both are thoughts. The thought is not

the mind but flow of thoughts is the mind - just as flow of water is river.

Thoughts are broadly defined two types - emotional thoughts and

discriminative thoughts - mind(manas) is the center of the emotional

thoughts and intellect (buddhi) is the center of the intellectual thoughts.

Love, jalousie, compassion etc. - all emotional feelings is the mind.

Ideas, concepts, right and wrong-discrimination, values, objective

knowledge- science, logic, mathematics etc. all come under buddhi. Thus

the texture of the thoughts separate the mind and intellect. Identifying

with the mind, I say, I love this, I hate this, I am jalousie of this etc.

Identifying with the buddi, I say I am engineer or doctor or I solved this,

I am intelligent, I am stupid etc. Senses feed the perceptions to the mind

- mind relays to buddi and buddi decides what that object is - this is

involved in perception, volition, cognition and recognition - process.

Mind is therefore a receiving clerk and intellect is the boss.

Consciousness beams through the intellect, which is further reflected in

the mind and through the mind to the body. Body may perceive, but if the

mind is not behind(if one is day dreaming) no knowledge of perception takes

place. Intellect, in principle, is like an ambassador, acting on behalf

of the government, and pass the order to the mind to execute through the

body equipment. Ambassador, personally, in principle, is not accountable

for the actions done on behalf of his government. Not knowing the chain of

command(you see I work for the Navy!), if ambassador takes in charge that I

am the real boss, then problems comes into picture. This is the beginning

of the ego (ahankara). Not knowing who that 'I am' is and taking the

identified bodies, subtle or grosser bodies as I am is the ego- and this is

what is called 'non-apprehension of the reality causes the misapprehension

of the reality'. Non-apprehensions is called the ignorance the root cause

of the problem and misapprehension is the mental projection is the

byproduct or the consequence of the ignorance. Essentially, I donot know

who I am consequently I take myself to be whom I am not. If I know who I

am then all the problems are solved since I can use body, mind and

intellect as the tools, on the need basis.

 

Then there is one more body that Vedanta brings to our attention after deep

analysis of the human problem - and that is Vaasana or 'ones likes and

dislikes' or 'hang-ups' or KaaraNa shareera (causal body). Vaasana means -

fragrance - it is the fragrance left by ego-centric actions or desires in

the mind. Let me explain. When I drank a cup of coffee in my friends

house for the first time, I liked it. The tangible enjoyment was over, but

it left a tiny impression in my mind since I liked it and want to repeat

that experience. So I go to shop by lots of coffee and learn how to make

and start drinking every day in the morning. This is a deliberate

ego-centric action propelled by my desire to repeat the experience. Every

time I drink, I reinforce this Coffee -vaasana and my coffee vaasana

becomes stronger and stronger and also subtler and subtler (I would not

settle for any coffee - I need good Columbia Supreme, roasted to the exact

right color etc., etc.). Vaasanaas are deep impressions in the depth of

the mind - that manifest as desires at the intellect level and agitations

in the mind level and actions at the body level. If the results are

conducive to my vaasanaas - my likes and dislikes - I am happy otherwise I

am miserable. If one analyzes ones life - it is essentially driven by ones

vaasanaas - I like science, I like dress like this, I hate that etc. -

every desire prompted action is ultimately driven by ones vaasanaas. I am

what I am, where I am etc. is dictated by my own vaasanas. This is cause

for everything that I do they way I do - hence it is called causal body -

kaaraNa or cause since it is the kaaraNa

for everything I do or don't know - the I way I think compared to the way

others think. Even to the desire to share what I know is the vaasana

prompted action. Hence Vedanta identifies the root cause for human

suffering is ones Vasaanaas - Since these are result of the deliberate

actions(karma-s) on my part (like drinking coffee everyday) - there are

also called in generic sense - karma . 'It is my karma to be what I am and

the way I think'. Objectively speaking since flow of thoughts(mind)

should have a direction for flow, vaasanas can be considered as the grooves

or river-bed for the flow of the thoughts. More vaasanaas more desires in

the mind - I want this, this this that and that etc. - and I go after what

I want and the life becomes a rat-race - running from morning till night,

day after day, year after year, and ultimately life after life! - This

lead us to lives - Total vaasanaas that I have is called sanchita karma

(total bank account that I have to exhaust) of which I bring only part that

can be exhausted in this life in this environment etc. and that is called

'praarabda karma' and in the process of living this life I accumulate new

vaasanas which may not be germinated this life but then stored in my

account to be exhausted in the next or next next life etc. Hence you can

see why vaasanaas are called causal body- it is the cause for all bodies -

I create my word depending on my vaasanaas. You create your world around

your likes and dislikes. The nation together creates its world by the

combined vaasanas of the people of the nation - these are called samishTi

vaasanaas. This advaitin list serve is created to satisfy the desires of

the many who were unhappy with the things available. This world of

advaitin is the result of samishhTi vaasanas.

 

Now as long as I have vaasanaas - I can not but have desires, and I cannot

suppress them neither I can keep quite - I am become a prisoner of my own

doing- my own karma.

If I act them out I am going to accumulate more vaasanas. I am trapped!

This is vicious cycle of birth , Janma - Janma to Karma and Karma to Janma.

 

The way to get out is to sublimate the vaasanaas or neutralize them - like

taking the prongs of the snake - beauty of the snake remains but it is no

more dangerous. By the by, all religions symbolize this so called devil as

snake - In Hindu, god has made ornaments out of it since the have been

neutralized! Lord Shiva wares then on His head. Lord NaaraayaNa lies down

on top it as a comfortable water-bed!

 

How to sublimate the vaasanaas - All religions emphasize these - selfless

work, devotion to the Lord etc. This is the essence of Yoga - Karma yoga -

Karma becomes a yoga if have perform the action in the attitude of yoga -

offering to the lord as my prayer to the Lord. For that of course I need

to understand who is the Lord, where is that Lord, and why is the Lord etc.

Some of the discussions in the past addressed these.

 

Three states of Experience -

 

In the waking state I identify with all the three bodies - kaaraNa

shareera, suukshma shareera and sthuula shareera ( I am deliberately using

the sanskrit words since these terms were defined earlier). But most of

the transactions occur through the body, sthuula shareera in the waking

state.

 

In the dream, my identification with the sthuula shareera is folded and I

identify my self with the KaaraNa and Suukshma Shareera. Dream is nothing

but the suppressions and oppressions (likes and dislikes (vaasanas)

accumulated the waking state)of the waking state are played out so that

mind is freed from these burdens - I create my own subtle world (I have

complete knowledgeof creation) in my dream, and forgetting that I am the

creator, I identify my self as one of the subjects in the dream, different

from other objects and subjects, and experience the subject- object

distinctions taking them as real.

In the deep sleep state, the sthuula and sukshma shareeraas are folded and

I identify with kaaraNa shareera or causal body. I am different from all

these shareeraas and the associated states. I am reamins in all theses

three states - what I think I am keep changing. Since they are changing

they are real - I am still remain changelss - see the discussion on what is

real.

 

Physical death - Death is the permanent separation from the sthuula or

gross body, the suukshma and kaaraNa shareera the subtle and causal bodies.

Jeeva or soul who has been identifying with all these bodies withdraws

identification from the sthuula since it offers no more conducive field

for the playing out the next powerful set of vaasanaas that are being

germinated. Hence I withdraw from the gross body and search for different

environment which may be more conducive to exhaust my deeper vaasanaas.

What I take with me subtle and causal bodies, the mind and intellect and

vaasanaas - the capacity to think and the vaasanaas that provides the likes

and dislikes or hangs of the directions for my thinking. In scriptures

heavens and hells are described - these are subtler fields where I can

exhaust my likes and dislikes - punya and paapa - merits and demerits . It

is similar to dream world which is a subtle world to exhaust my pleasures

and fears and pains. After that I am awake, back to the waking state.

Similarly , after jeeva travels to subtler worlds, it is pushed back to the

gross world for exhausting grosser vaasanaas. That explains the

transmigration of the souls. This is logically deduced on the basis of

actions and results and accountability.

 

Death of Jeeva or ahankara - Permanent death occurs when I stop identifying

my self with the objects which are inert. That can happen only if I know

who I am. That is what is called self realization. I am existence,

consciousness and happiness. I am what I am looking for all the time.

Happiness includes without any limitations hence infiniteness. I am that

or I am infiniteness or aham Brahmaasmi - is the teaching of the Vedas. I

have to confirm that with my own understanding - that is called

realization.

 

What is truth - Truth is that which remains the same in three periods of

time - hence it is beyond time. trickle abhaaditam satyam - is the

declaration of Advaita vedanta. Time has been discussed before - please

refer to the archives - Time is related to thought and the mind. Time and

space are interrelated. I am beyond the time since I am conscious of the

time. I am conscious of the space too. They are objects of my

consciousness. I am self-consciousness - Because I am self consciousness,

I am conscious of my self as well as consciousness of the world - (since I

donot know who that my self is I take myself to be this and this etc. -

back to identification of who I am not).

 

Memory is the inert mater as the thoughts that I know - and also thoughts

of what I know of things that I donot know. It is like soft ware.

Identifying with that I take my self to be so and so - at body, mind and

intellect level - this is me and this is mine - notions.

The more I use the stored information, the easier I remember - the

operation of the memory then depends on not only the software - but

compatible hard ware. If the brain is damaged, I loose the capacity to tap

that memory even though it is there, stored. With age this capacity to

remember is lost - But what is stored as deeper vaasanaas remain and

manifest in terms of likes and dislikes. When I am born in the next life,

the knowledge I have gained will come to rescue when I start to learn.

Some people learn fast some slow and some are child prodigies -

particularly in the arts etc.

 

I do not remember what I eat 10 days ago for breakfast, but I remember

vividly the nasty things that the other guy talked about me two months ago.

But effect of that breakfast still there in terms of fat accumulation at

the body level and so on. The effect of the other guy is more vivid since

my mind is constantly dwelling on these. Here comes the theory of how

intensely the vaasanaas play - Krishna talks about these in the second

chapter of Geeta (his teaching starts only from the second chapter) -

Dhyaato vishhayaan pumsaH .. etc. . How the degradation of man occurs - how

likes and dislikes accumulate. If one thinks of bad things one becomes bad

- now this works in reverse too - By thinking of good thoughts one becomes

good - good thoughts are those that calm the mind rather than agitate the

mind. Sankara calls this as sat sangha - company of the good - sat

sanghatve nissangatvam ... by the association with the good - dissociation

of the mind takes place etc.

 

What is service - True service comes only when I identify myself not only

with this body but with other bodies as well as. I and my country men are

one - then I truly serve with love my country without my ego playing - not

for my selfishness - the fishy part in this is removed. I and the universe

are one - takes me beyond - I cannot but serve the whole universe. It is

not service any more - When my hand that accidentally hurted my eyes, I

donot prosecute the hand. I use the same hand to soothe the eye - because

my-ness or I-ness extend to both eye and the hand - no separation. If

somebody's hand hurts my eyes- you know what happens - because somebody is

not me.

 

Love, Service etc. have correct meaning only then. Till then it is good

idea to bring the Lord into the field and say I want to serve Him in this

way since Lord is everywhere including the ones I am serving. That is

Karma yoga. That purifies the mind which has the notion that it has to

serve even. The truth is even that service is done by the Lord Himself.

All one can do is just stand apart and watch the tamaasha or drama.

 

I wrote what came to my mind. I may not have answered all the questions in

this but one has to contemplate on these to see the truth of what was

written. I urge you to contemplate on what has been stated and churn in

the mind to see clearly in your own mind.

 

One alone has the capacity to answer ones questions and none other!

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

 

 

>> about how I came to my understanding of death for a Death and Dying

>course.

>> I described some of the experiences and states, but was left with a

>> question: In that state, there is no soul separate, no time either. What

>> exists through many bodies and lifetime experience then? I also said to

>him

>> that I used to see how we are all drops in an ocean, but now I see how

>the

>> ocean is in each drop. (This came from how I had always loved the world

>and

>> an abstraction of God reflected back and everything was one). Do these

>> ideas make sense to you? Can you help clarify this? In my humour, I had

>> written, "Is it the soul that travels then and forgets itself? A senile

>> soul." So it's this soul/no soul thing that has me stuck. At the core,

>> there is not soul, but some part of the emanation of God that we are

>knows

>> or doesn't know itself and it's the same because it does really know.

>It's

>> like God blinks and really there is no soul. We think there is. So then

>how

>> does reincarnation and memories fit?

>> What I suggested in the journal was that, just as the body/mind perceives

>> itself in time of a duration of 100 yrs, the soul perceives itself in

>> something like eternity, but that because there is no time in the Real,

>> neither of these perceptions are the core truth. I can't tell you how

>very

>> difficult it is to try to articulate what is so beyond my comprehension.

>I

>> have to just send this. There are other things to clarify, but they can

>> wait.

>> Ultimately, this would not matter except that this person in this life

>and

>> time believes that this awareness would not come unless there was a

>reason

>> for others. Truth is love and love is service, so I need new language for

>> this brain. A baby learning to speak. :) It is very much like that.

>> Fist a baby sees and hears, then it learns concepts, then it speaks.

>> Thanks for your help,

>> Tamra

>>

>>

>

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>Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy, its true meaning,

>profundity, richness and beauty with the focus on the non-duality between

>mind and matter

 

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623