continuing this dialogue on cause-effect - and giving my personal introduction.

[Guest guest]

The discussion so far has been very interesting. In another list I had asked the

question can someone with good background of Vedanta - give clear explanation of

the various cause-effect dialogues from Vedanta? (Karya-Karana relationship).

That list did not give any response.

 

I am a student of Physics. This idea of causality is very central to all

Physics.

Can someone give a proper explanation?

 

Our moderator has asked all recent members to give personal introduction:-

 

My background is theoretical physics. My interest is spirituality, and the

important role it will play in explaining science. My work is portraying

teachings of Swami Vivekananda to many educational institutes and media in

England. You may have better information of the spiritual activities I am

involved in by looking at:

Our website http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

My private email is vedanta

pranams Jay Lakhani

 

P.S. So far I have found this list very informative and extremely well looked

after. Thanks

[Guest guest]

Kaarya-kaaraNa sambhandha - cause-effect relationships.

 

I will present my understanding which is based on the knowledge I gained

from My Gurudev Swami Chinmayanandaji.

 

1. Kaarya and KaaraNa and their sambhandha - is in the realm of the

intellect, Buddhi. Buddhi belongs to the realm of thoughts. But Buddhi

itself is a cause of something else - This aspect is important to recognize

particularly when we try to inquire the cause that which is beyond the

thought process! - There are situations like egg-chicken case - what is

the cause what is the effect - Obviously there is no answer. We can get

into situations like inter-dependent cause-effect relationship here - in

Sanskrit it is called anyonya aashraya - The pertinent example for it is

relationship between Jeeva and Avidya. In advaita vedanta, Jeeva is the

product of avidya at the same time Jeeva is the locus of avidya too that

is, jeeva has the avidya.

He cannot be locus of avidya if he is the effect since avidya must be there

before jeeva is borne - But when jeeva is not there, there is only Brahman

and he cannot have avidya - since if he has it he cannot be Brahman -

Bhagavaan Ramanuja uses these arguments to dismiss the advaitic thesis.

Shankara rightly says just as in the chicken-egg situation, avidya is

anaadi and the relationship between Jeeva and avidya is unexplainable -

anirvachaneeyam- That is the cause-effect relationship is beyond the very

thought process that is demanding an explanation. This aspect becomes more

clear when we inquire further.

 

2. By definition the cause supersedes the effect - a minute - a microsecond

or nanosecond - Thus cause-effect relation belong to the realm of time.

Now we can see the relations to the above. Time itself is a product of

thought - First thought - second thought and the gap between the two events

is the time and concept of the time is the third thought in the sequence.

All cause-effects then follow since they are in the realm of time. When

one goes beyond the thoughts, that is identifying oneself with the

consciousness which is aware of the thoughts, time and hence space etc.,

one goes beyond the cause-effect relationships. There is no change in the

awareness (all changes are known because of the changeless awareness) and

hence awareness transcends the time or belong to transcendental state.

 

3. Thus all the discussion of cause-effect relationships comes only when

one recognizes the thoughts and hence the time etc. (Please note that one

can recognize the thoughts yet not have a notion that I am the thought - I

am the body, mind, intellect etc. starts first that 'this is the body"

thought and when I donot know who I am, taking this is the body to "I am

this body" thought - Idam vRitti and aham vRitti.). World is nothing but

thoughts in the mind (no thought no world and Jagat is not perceived when

Buddhi is not functioning - whether it exists independent of Buddhi or not

is an academic question since who is going to know that it exists - Knower

is essential to recognized the thoughts and hence the world).

 

4. Recognizing that cause-effect relations belong to the realm of the

Jagat, which in turn is in the realm of the thoughts which in turn is in

the realm of Buddhi - we now have complete connection - we can now explore

the cause-effect relations as they relate to Jagat.

 

5. There are three laws of causation as Swami Chinmayanandaji condensed

them - a) for every effect there must be a cause, b) every effect is

nothing but cause itself in a different form, and c) when all the effects

are removed, all the causes are removed (nothing or 'no-thing' remains

-other than the one who is analyzing the cause-effect relationships). The

first one is obvious. The second one follows from the discussion based on

'material cause' and third one follows form the discussion of the

efficient cause. These are discussed below.

 

6. For every effect (or creation) there are two causes - the material cause

(upaadaana) and the efficient cause(nimitta kaaraNa). Actually there is

also an instrumental cause (karaNa KaaraNa) - but this can be redistributed

into the first ; ultimately to the second (karaNam kaaraNam Kartaa - from

Vishnu sahasra naamaavali - names of Vishnu). Example- to make a pot - I

need upaadaana (clay) and nimitta, knowledge of how to create the pot and

instrumental, the instruments and the skill to use the instruments. The

material cause, clay, cannot be separated form the effect, pot. Hence the

first law of causation follows - the effect is nothing but cause itself in

a different form. If the Jagat (effect) has to be created, the creator

should have the material for creation - He does not have any alternative

other than bringing the material from himself since there is no material

out there for him to use (if it is there then question comes where and how

did that material came into existence, etc.?) - from this it follows that

He as the material cause cannot be separated from the effect or the effect

is nothing but cause itself in different form - Hence all the scriptures

declare that He is omnipresent - since whole jagat is noting but He alone

in different form - since we only recognize the forms but not Him.

 

In the case of the pot, pot maker is different from the pot the effect.

That is material cause and efficient cause are different. But for the

Jagat, He is both the material cause and the efficient cause -Unlike in the

other creations for jagat, Material cause cannot be separated form the

efficient cause. Here lies the problem and where different aachaaryas have

provided different explanations. The question that boils downto is that

Jagat the world is inert and the creator the cause cannot be inert and

hence he cannot be the same as the material which is the inert or jaDam.

Advaita Vedanta goes one step further to explain further and here where

Maaya from the point of the Brahman which manifests as Avidya from the

point of Jeeva, and Adhaaysa or concept of super imposition comes in. It

rests on the hypothesis that the material is not real but is an apparent

projection on the total mind, which is Iswara or the creator. The example

is the dream world we create. We are the Iswara for our dream world or the

Nimitta KaaraNa and we have the knowledge of our creation (we never dreamt

gaagaa buubu since we donot know what is gaagaa buubuu), we create the

hills and valleys and the whole world involving material. For the dreamer

who dreams himself as a conscious entity limited to a tiny body thinks that

the world and the matter is real. Yet it is just superimposition on the

mind - thought projection- and who is projecting - it is I the creator,

the non-inert entity or conscious entity. Hence I am the Iswara and there

is the Jagat. Both as the Iswara and the Jagat - the cause-effect relation

is in the realm of thoughts and they are all in me - the consciousness.

They raise in me, sustained by me and go back into me - Hence the concept

of Adhyaasa. Now one can ask oneself when and how did the dream start -

Everyone can go experiment today, before they begin to dream, to precisely

locate the time when the dream starts - It is impossible, because the dream

time starts after the two dream thoughts! - Hence Shankara says -

anirvachaniiyam - it is unexplainable since mind is not there to see the

beginning. Hence the truth lies beyond the mind.

Why one dreams? - Because I have the capacity to dream - From the point of

Iswara - the projecting power is called Maya and locus for Maya is Iswara

who himself is brought in because there is Jagat - If I identify myself I

am the dreamer the creator of my dream, I become the Iswara of my dream.

But I identify myself as I am a small persecuted individual in the dream, I

become a Jeeva. It is only the question of with what I identify myself as

- Jeeva and Iswara are obviously the conscious entities (non-jaDam or

non-inert) and both are me the consciousness substatum for both. The whole

dream is projected and supported by the consciousness entity - as thought

raises from consciousness, sustained by consciousness and goes back into

consciousness - But if it goes back into consciousness then it is also the

material cause - just pot goes back into clay. Since consciousness is not

inert, and so-called jaDam aspect of the jagat is not real but only

apparent. Just as the dream world is not real but only apparent - For a

dreamer who is suffering in the dream, the dream matter is as real - he

has to run away from the tiger that is chasing him. But for a waker who

realized that it is all dream - it is not real. Same is the cause-effect

relation in the waking world - Hence the emphasis of the whole of MaanDukya

Upanishad - one of the most beautiful Upanishad that puts the cause-effect

relations in correct perspective. All the three laws of causation

discussed above follow from this understanding.

 

We cannot but bow down with humility to all the great masters who provided

such deep analysis of the universal system so exhaustively - I do not think

there is anything else one can add to it other than see and realize the

truth that which is beyond the cause-effects - the very substratum from

which the whole of cause-effect relationships arise, sustain and go back.

 

Cause-effect relation is the scientific prusuit - But Vedantic masters have

realized that the truth lies beyond the cause-effect relations ships - it

is the very consciousness that is independent of the cause-effect relation

ships - more than the very cause-effect relations that a scientist is

investigating is supported by the conscious entity that is doing the

investigation! One can not find the ultimate cause out there - one has to

turn inwords and discover that He is the cause and He is the effect and

there is nothing other than Him. All cause-effect relation are Maya or the

creators power and it is his Iswarya or Glory. It is time to sit back and

enjoy the beauty of the cause-effect relations.

 

 

> The discussion so far has been very interesting. In another list I

>had asked the question can someone with good background of Vedanta - give

>clear explanation of the various cause-effect dialogues >from Vedanta?

>(Karya-Karana relationship). That list did not give any response. I am

>a student of Physics. This idea of causality is very central to all

>Physics. Can someone give a proper explanation? Our moderator has asked

>all recent members to give personal introduction:- My background is

>theoretical physics. My interest is spirituality, and the important role

>it will play in explaining science. My work is portraying teachings of

>Swami Vivekananda to many educational institutes and media in England.

>You may have better information of the spiritual activities I am involved

>in by looking at: Our website http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ My

>private email is vedanta pranams Jay Lakhani P.S. So far

>I have found this list very informative and extremely well looked after.

>Thanks

 

Welcome to the advaitin List.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

K. Sadananda

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