mAyA and ignorance

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, sadananda wrote (in thread: karya-karan question):

> sadananda <sada

>

>

> Just a word of caution here - or paraphrasing of the words for clarity or

> emphasing some aspects which Murthygaaru is fully aware:

>

> Cause of the Jagat is maaya ( but maaya should not be construed as

> ignorance) and maaya manifests as ignorance only at an individual level

> when the individual does not know that it is maaya. Out of ignorance he

> takes maaya as not maaya but is real. Illusion part by itself is maaya.

> But delusion that makes one see the illusion as real is the ignorance of

> the fact that "it is only maaya". At collective level maaya manifests as

> the parameswara shakti - power of the Lord or Iswara. From Brahman point

> there is no separation of jeeva, Iswara or jagat and therefore maaya

> either.

>

 

Namaste.

 

I was guilty of using and intercahnging the words ignorance and mAyA

without too much care in my posts of this week. It is inadvertant.

I am grateful to Shri Sadananda for pointing out this to me. It made

me think a bit more on this matter. I have the following questions

and would be grateful if Shri Sadananda and others comment on this.

 

Isn't the difference between mAyA and ignorance only at the intellectual

level? Is not mAyA really because of our ignorance? [i recognize that

difference between *any* is because of our ignorance only and is only at

the intellectual level. Thus there may be only one answer to the above

questions. But I am trying to differentiate or integrate between the two].

 

Shri Sadananda says "mAyA is the cause for the jagat, and to consider that

as real is ignorance". Although I fully agree with it, I am trying to

grapple with the thought: is not the presence of mAyA also due to

ignorance?

 

Let me put four alternate scenarios here, although I am not sure if they

are possible:

 

A. Jeeva X is ignorant (not even intellectual knowledge of the jagat).

There is mAyA-generated jagat and X considers this jagat to be real.

 

B. Jeeva X is ignorant (X intellectually knows that jagat is the effect

of mAyA). While X intellectually knows that jagat is after all an effect

of mAyA, but because of ignorance, participates in the jagat just like

case A above, being part of the joys and pains of the jagat (i.e. goes

through samsArA); the intellectual knowledge does not help this person.

 

C. X is jnAnam embodied. sees the mAyA-generated jagat, but only as a

witness; while participating in the jagat-activities, did not become

part of the joys and pains of the jagat. [X may be viewed by others

as any worldly person, but for X, the jagat is just a play-ground].

 

D. X is jnAnam embodied, permanently in the turIyA; does not see the

mAyA-generated jagat (possible?).

 

So, basically, what I am trying to say is: once ignorance is removed,

mAyA is no longer there. If mAyA is no longer there, will mAyA-generated

effects be still there? Should they not also vanish?. (I assume the

effects will be still there but our perception of these effects may

change). It seems to me, ignorance is still the root cause from which

mAyA builds its web.

 

I would be most grateful for clarifications.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>

>

>On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, sadananda wrote (in thread: karya-karan question):

>

>> sadananda <sada

>Namaste.

>

>I I have the following questions

>and would be grateful if Shri Sadananda and others comment on this.

>

>Isn't the difference between mAyA and ignorance only at the intellectual

>level?

 

All are at intellectual level, when one reduces the world as nothing but

thoughts in the mind and then it is only adhyaasa.

Hence in aatma bodha Shankara says:

sadaa sarva gatopyaatmaa

na sarvatra avabhaasate|

budhyaavevabhaaseta

swaccheshu pratibinbavat||

Although aatma is all pervading, it does not shine everywhere. It shines

only in the buddhi and cleaner the buddhi greater is its reflections just

as the mirror.

>Is not mAyA really because of our ignorance? [i recognize that

>difference between *any* is because of our ignorance only and is only at

>the intellectual level. Thus there may be only one answer to the above

>questions. But I am trying to differentiate or integrate between the two].

>

>Shri Sadananda says "mAyA is the cause for the jagat, and to consider that

>as real is ignorance". Although I fully agree with it, I am trying to

>grapple with the thought: is not the presence of mAyA also due to

>ignorance?

>

>Let me put four alternate scenarios here, although I am not sure if they

>are possible:

>

>A. Jeeva X is ignorant (not even intellectual knowledge of the jagat).

> There is mAyA-generated jagat and X considers this jagat to be real.

>

>B. Jeeva X is ignorant (X intellectually knows that jagat is the effect

> of mAyA). While X intellectually knows that jagat is after all an effect

> of mAyA, but because of ignorance, participates in the jagat just like

> case A above, being part of the joys and pains of the jagat (i.e. goes

> through samsArA); the intellectual knowledge does not help this person.

 

 

Cases A and B are not much different - both are ignorant; one knows it and

other does not. The one who knows, at least may make an effort to solve

the problem if he understands the problem correctly.

 

>C. X is jnAnam embodied. sees the mAyA-generated jagat, but only as a

> witness; while participating in the jagat-activities, did not become

> part of the joys and pains of the jagat. [X may be viewed by others

> as any worldly person, but for X, the jagat is just a play-ground].

 

Case of C is the Jeevanmukta purusha - Maaya is still there but he is the

Iswara and becomes a maayavi or the player of the maaya. His equipments

may undergo mutations but he is beyond and see the beauty in everything.

Life is real play for him. Hence maaya does not disappear with knowledge

but it becomes his vehicle to play. Actually he does not play either but

see the play going under his adhyaksha - take the life of Krishna. He has

his leela and Lord is using the limited equipments for the benefit of the

society.

>

>D. X is jnAnam embodied, permanently in the turIyA; does not see the

> mAyA-generated jagat (possible?).

 

This is the final state when the utility of the equipments is completed.

 

>So, basically, what I am trying to say is: once ignorance is removed,

>mAyA is no longer there. If mAyA is no longer there, will mAyA-generated

>effects be still there? Should they not also vanish?.

 

When ignorance is removed there is no more mistaken notions that I am this

body, mind and intellect although I can use this body, mind and intellect.

"every thing is in me and I am in everything" is the understanding and

hence maaya is recognized as Maya. Here is the case the ignorance part is

removed but the projecting part remains but there is no misunderstanding.

 

There is also a counter part where the projecting power is folded while the

ignorance part remains - this happens to every one in sushupti - deep sleep

state. All one can say - I did not see anything and I did not know any

thing.

 

Thus projecting part can exist without the ignorance part and likewise the

ignorance part can exist without the projecting part. They exist

simultaneously for the ignorant Jeeva in the waking and dream states.

 

Remember Sweteswara Upanishad equates maaya to prakriti - As long I see

the plurality there is prakriti doing its work. Taking the plurality as

reality is the ignorance of the nature of the prakriti and jeeva.

 

>(I assume the effects will be still there but our perception of these

>effects may

>change). It seems to me, ignorance is still the root cause from which

>mAyA builds its web.

 

 

Maya thus has two fold nature - ignorance part and the projecting part - As

discussed above each part can exist by itself or they are together. But

as I understand the convention in the Advaita Vedanta is to call it as

Maaya under the projecting power and the avidya or ignorance when there is

veiling power. - aavaraNa and viksepa shaktiis. avidya is centered on the

jeeva (individual mind) and maaya is centered on Iswara (or the total

mind). Hence when one individual is realized, the other individual is not

and also when one individual is realized the avidya aspect is dissolved and

the projecting part remains. Hence the Jeevan mukta sees the plurality

but does not take it to be reality since he knows He is the reality. It

becomes his iswaryam since he is the iswara now.

 

"sarva bhuutastam aatmaanam,

sarva bhuutaanica aatmani"

 

"I am in all of them and all are in me"

- becomes the knowledge where all are seen but seen as oneself projecting

as many.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

 

K. Sadananda

Code 6323

Naval Research Laboratory

Washington D.C. 20375

Voice (202)767-2117

Fax:(202)767-2623

[Guest guest]

Greetings Murthygaru:

 

Your questions contain time and space components where as ultimate

reality is beyond time and space. Again, the scenarios raise a logical

paradox which appears unresolvable! The difficulty starts with

implicit assumptions that are not valid. According to Sankara, the frame

of reference in time and space is not independent of mAyA. Sankara says

mAyA was the cause for time and space. (mAyA kalpita desa kAla

lalanA..... Sankara's DakshinAmurti Ashtakam). The scenarios, the

questions and all discussions pertaining to mAya and ignorance is also

due to the influence of mAya! Questions such as - Where does mAyA

operate?, When did it start operating? and whether mAyA is prior to jiva

or later than jiva assume that Ultimate reality is within time and

space!

 

Swami Vivekananda gives a beautiful anology. He says that time, space

and causation are like the glass through which the Absolute is seen. In

the Absolute itself, there is neither space nor time nor causation. I

do agree with you that ignorance is the root cause!

 

--

Ram Chandran

Burke, VA