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On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, nanda chandran wrote:

> "nanda chandran" <vpcnk

>

> Gmurthy writes :

>

> >Yes, there is no argument about it. Mind alone is the cause for bondage

> or

> >liberation. We are as close or as far away from the "boundary" as our

> mind

> >tells.

>

> Who is the we? And please define “mind”. How can you who’re the

> changeless eternal absolute be “told” something by the mind?

>

> >Can we not also ascribe that mind alone is the cause for thinking that

> we

> >have free-will or that we do not have free-will? I am sure you will

> agree

> >with this.

>

> Here you say that the mind thinks that it has free will? So where were

> you at that time? And how is it that then you “think” that you’ve free

> will?

>

> >My argument in this series of posts is: free-will is an effect, just

> like

>

> Effect of what? When we are discussing whether we have free will, the

> free will in question is ours. So when free will is related to you, how

> can the cause be other than you? If the cause was other than you, then

> how would you have free will? But again if you’re a cause, which implies

> change, you cannot be eternal.

>

> >destiny is. That is what I stated in my first post. The root cause for

> all

> >this (these effects) is ignorance, traceable to the beginning of avidyA

> -

> >anAdi - beginningless.

>

> Ignorance implies two things - 1. the subject which is ignorant and 2.

> that of which the subject is ignorant. But we are the eternal absolute.

> So how can Ignorance be attatched to us?

>

> [... some further analysis deleted. ]

 

 

Namaste.

 

I must say I have some difficulty following Shri Nanda Chandran's

analysis of my post.

 

My post (under reference) is set in the vyavahArika mode, where we do not

have experiential knowledge of sameness of Brahman and Atman. We have

intellectual knowledge of the sameness but not experiential knowledge.

In that scenario, we still see the difference. If my post is viewed in

that light, may be some of the objections which Shri Nanda raised may

not be there? If my post is still considered not clear, I would be very

glad to clarify.

 

I like to touch on another point also. tat tvam asi. From my

understanding, meaning of tat tvam asi is quite profound. Tvam is

not what we see as ourselves. Tvam is the inner you.

 

Dehendriya-manah-prANAhmkr^tibhyo vilakshaNah

projghitAsheshha shhaDbhAvavikAra stvam padAbhidah

 

Shri Shankara in vAkyavr^tti

 

Totally distinct from the body, senses, mind, prANa, and ego is that

which is the SELF; therefore it is absolutely free from the six

modifications, which material things must naturally undergo. This

Self is the indicative meaning of the term "thou" (tvam).

 

In the same vAkyavr^tti, Shri Shankara describes tat also as eloquently,

and then the identity of tat and tvam.

 

Tat tvam asi is valid only in paramArtha. My post under reference is

set entirely in vyavahArika mode.

 

If there are any further objections in the light of these clarifications,

I will be very glad to amplify what I have written.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

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