Buddhism?

[Guest guest]

Dear List,

 

Lately I have been conversing with a couple of Buddhists on another list.

They speak of the "emptiness" and the "void" of Self, and speak of life as

a kind of living death. What foolishness is this? Can someone explain (in

Western terms; I know little Sanskrit) of what benefit would be Realization

of Self if Self is infinite void, infinite nothingness, emptiness? I

profess a lack of understanding of the Buddhist perspective.

 

Perhaps this will start an interesting "Buddhism compared to Vedanta"

thread (or perhaps not), but I would appreciate it if all would attempt to

keep it in Western terms, as I know only some basic Sanskrit words.

 

Thank you, and here's to the ETERNAL FULLNESS and BLISS of Brahman,

 

Tim

 

 

-----

The CORE of Reality awaits you at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html -

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[Guest guest]

You have clearly understood one of the main differences between Vedanta and

Buddhism. Shankara devoted a great deal of time countering Buddhist ideas

since Buddhism had grown to be a very popular alternative to Hinduism and a

corrupt priesthood in Shankara's lifetimes.

 

Buddhists hold there is no such thing as the self, that the notion of a self

is illusion. Therefore their notions of karma are very different because

there is no self to which good and bad effects of actions can be associated.

Thus the effects are shared with all of life.

 

The early Buddhists were able to recognize a substratum that had no

qualities like form, color, fragrance, no beginning or end spacewise or

timewise. They did understand that it was one. They were not able to see

that this existent, consciousness without the attributes of objects was the

self, their own substratum. They called it the void. The Hindu scriptures,

the upanishads, would have taught them that it was the Self, or even the

teaching of traditional gurus would have pointed this out but Buddhists do

not include testimony like scriptures or teaching as a valid means of

knowledge.

 

Aikya Param

Berkeley, CA

 

Advaita Vedanta for Today

http://members.tripod.com/aikya

 

Promise

http://promise.webrovider.com

 

 

 

 

Tim Gerchmez <fewtch

advaitin <advaitin >

Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:57 PM

Buddhism?

 

>Tim Gerchmez <fewtch

>

>

>Dear List,

>

>Lately I have been conversing with a couple of Buddhists on another list.

>They speak of the "emptiness" and the "void" of Self, and speak of life as

>a kind of living death. What foolishness is this? Can someone explain (in

>Western terms; I know little Sanskrit) of what benefit would be Realization

>of Self if Self is infinite void, infinite nothingness, emptiness? I

>profess a lack of understanding of the Buddhist perspective.

>

>Perhaps this will start an interesting "Buddhism compared to Vedanta"

>thread (or perhaps not), but I would appreciate it if all would attempt to

>keep it in Western terms, as I know only some basic Sanskrit words.

>

>Thank you, and here's to the ETERNAL FULLNESS and BLISS of Brahman,

>

>Tim

>

>

>-----

>The CORE of Reality awaits you at:

>http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html -

>Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics.

>

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>Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy

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>

[Guest guest]

Greetings Nanda:

 

First, thanks for your scholarly explanations to the subject matter and

let me add some additional points. I also suggest that you write a brief

description about the materials on your homepage on Buddhism. This will

be helpful to readers who want to get some further insights.

 

Homepages use different language fonts, graphical images and ingenious

presentation techniques. When we browse a Homepage that uses the

Sanskrit language fonts, we use apply the same fonts to the browser in

order to view the homepage appropriately. If we fail to observe those

rules then whatever we view will appear as Garbage. To view the true

contents (TRUTH) of the homepage, we need to apply appropriate fonts,

graphic viewers, and sound receivers (plugin) that come along with the

browser. Buddhism and Advaitam are also like the homepages and to

understand the TRUTH behind them, we need to know the terminologies and

framework. Nanda's posting illustrates this point adequately.

 

A notable distinction does exist between Advaitam and Buddhism on the

subject matter - desires. The goal of Buddhism is to remove all desires

and free the mind from desires. In Advaitam, the goal is to train the

mind to be "fulfilled" all the time so that the mind gets the freedom

from anxieties worries caused by success and failures, pleasures and

pains, right and wrong, good and bad, etc. The Vedantic point of view

is described beautifully in Chapter 2, verses 55 to 72 in Gita

(Sthitaprajna).

 

Bhagavad Gita Verse 71 illustrates the essence of the Vedantic

philosophy in a nutshell. This verse in poetic form uses a powerful

simile to describe the transformation of human soul after its merger

with the divinity! The divine qualities of the Self-realized soul are

described in no uncertain terms.

 

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, Verse 71:

 

Aapuryamaanam acala-pratistham samudram aapah pravisanti yadvat tadvat

kama yam pravisanti sarve sa saantim aapnoti na kaama-kaami

 

English Translation By Dr. Radhakrishnan:

 

He unto whom all desires enter as waters into the sea, which, though

ever being filled is ever motionless, attains to peace and not he who

hugs his desires.

 

The science of Vedanta as expressed in Gita combines both the

scientific rationale and the mystic experience. We can possibly apply

scientific rationale to explain rains, rivers and oceans. Science also

explains why water is essential for the survival of life in this

planet. Scientists have developed models to predict the time, location

and the amount of rain fall with a higher level of precision than ever

before. They can try to explain why rain waters fill the rivers and why

rivers can't be recognized when they reach the ocean. But science has

its own limitations. When Scientific explanations fail to satisfy the

human mind, mystic experiences enter to fill up the gap. Those

experiences bring inner peace, happiness and stability to the agitating

human brain.

 

Science can explain neither the reasons for the searching for inner

peace nor it can explain how to attain peace. Mystic experiences do

occur when we walk along the beaches, stand on the banks of a river and

climbing over the top of the mountain. Sometime inner peace and

tranquility are established while sitting quietly and doing nothing!

The boundless beauty of oceans, rivers, mountains and silence is Divine

and is beyond Science.

 

Science identifies water as the material connection between rain, river,

ocean and life. The subtle connection between material objects and

life comes from mysticism. Science is an explanation and mysticism is

an experience. Scientists may be able to prove that there can be no

life without water. Vedanta explains that the universal consciousness

is the spiritual connectivity across the planet. The Mundaka Upanishad

states " As the flowing rivers disappear in the sea, losing their name

and form, so does a wise man freed from name and form go into the Divine

Spirit greater than the great."

 

This verse portrays a visual picture to explain the spiritual

transformation of the materialistic life. Lord Krishna describes the

spiritual man with the divine qualities using a powerful poem. When

rivers reach the ocean, they are no more called rivers and the qualities

of the river disappear instantaneously. When the materialistic human

becomes spiritual, he is no more human and he becomes the Brahman.

There is no better substitute than ocean to represent Eternal Truth.

The vast boundless ocean is motionless, serene and SILENT.

 

Ocean is always FULL and human intelligence has no capacity to imagine

an empty ocean! The nerve center for human desires is mind which

undergoes changes with the spiritual growth. Rain waters represent the

desires and rivers represent the spiritual path to human life. A

spiritual path requires dedication, determination, love and discipline

to divert our desires to satisfy community needs and abandon

selfishness. Spiritual life has a sense of direction, purpose and

destination. The waters of the rivers flow through the planet for the

survival of the subjects which include humans, animals, plants and

insects. The spiritual person, similarly, proceeds the life with

desires and duties for the betterment of the society.

 

The river merging with the ocean is the symbolic union of Atman and

Brahman. Just like the rivers which became the ocean, the spiritual

people become the Brahman. The human mind vanishes to become the

Divine mind and True Divine Nature is reestablished. The True Divine

Nature establishes the PURE Mind and all desires are fulfilled without

experiencing plurality. It retains the Stable Mind, Peace, Happiness,

Kindness, Goodness, Generosity and Love. This verse also

contains a subtle message on the Nature of the Brahman! At the realized

stage desires do not disappear but all those desires will have no effect

on the Pure Divine Mind.

 

This description of Brahman is significantly differs from "Nirvana,"

the concept of Buddhism. The person at the Nirvana state will have no

desires. People who want "No desires" need the DESIRE of no desires! I

would argue that when humans apply literal meanings to the concepts

developed from Divine Experience, they appear contradictory. In reality

there can be no difference between Divine experiences that originate

from any religion whether it is from Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity,

Islam or other. Purity of mind and divine qualities represent the

common denominator of all religions. The divine the unity is visible

only with the Divine Vision. Minds that are corrupt like ours enjoy

temporary pleasure by projecting differences and divisions across

religions, cultures and races.

 

Note: Please note that the explanations given above come from human

thinking and have their limitations. I am aware of the pitfalls and

please forgive my errors. For interested readers, commentaries from

Swami Chinmayananda and Tilak are included. If any of you have access

to other commentaries, please post them so that we get more insights.

 

Swami Chinmayananda's Interpretation: "It is a well-known

example that although gallons of waters reach the ocean through the

various rivers, yet the level of water in the ocean does not change even

by a fraction. Similarly, even though through the five sense-channels

the infinite number of sense-objects may pour in their stimuli, they do

reach the mental zone of the Perfect Man (Self-realized) and yet they do

not create any commotion or flux in his bosom. Such an individual who is

ever finding his own level in spite of the fact that he is living amidst

the sense-objects, is called a Man of Perfection - a true saint. And

Krishna asserts that such an individual alone can truely discover peace

and happiness in himself. The Lord of the Gita, not satisfied with this

negative assertion, positively denies any true peace or joy to those who

are ‘desirers of desires. .................. The Gita herein

is only repeating what the Upanishadic Rishis are never tired of

emphasizing in the scriptures of India. The desirers of desires can

never come to perfect peace (santi). Only one who has in his spirit o

detachment gained a complete control over his mind so that the

sense-objects of the outer world cannot create in him an infinite number

of yearnings of desires, he alone is the man of peace and joy. The

objects in the outer world cannot themselves tease a man by their

existence or by their nonexistence. The outer world can borrow its

capacity to ill-treat man only when the individual exposes himself

unguarded, and thus he gets wounded and crushed by his own attachments

to a wrong valuation of the sense-objects."

 

Interpretation by Bal Gangadhar Tilak and Translated by

Sukthankar: "Just as all water enters, from all sides, the sea,

of which the shores are not transgressed, though it is being filled on

all sides, so is (true) tranquility obtained by that person who is

entered by all objects of sense (without disturbing his tranquility);

not by one, who desires the objects of sense. This does not mean

that one should abandon action in order to attain tranquility; what is

meant is that the minds of ordinary people are confused by the Hope of

Fruit. Whatever the number of actions he has to perform, his peace of

Mind is not disturbed, and he performs them remaining as peaceful as the

sea; and he does not, therefore, suffer from pain or happiness."

 

Reference: "The Bhagavadgita" by S. Radhakrishnan, Blackie & Son

Publishers, Bombay. "Sreemad Bhagawad Geeta" by Swami Chinmayananda,

Chinmaya Mission. "Srimad Bhagavadgita-Rahasya or Karma-Yoga-Sastra" by

S Bal Gangadhar