Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 Ramachandraji wrote ......Religion is based on faith (belief) and conviction and can’t be scientifically evaluated for its content and relevance. Scientific facts can be logically tested and either they are rejected or accepted. There is no logical way of testing religious viewpoints and we can’t reject them using scientific methods. The viewpoints that are rejected using scientific methods fall short of the definition of ‘Religion.’...... In my humble opinion this limitation that we have imposed: ie. Science deals with matter/energy and spirituality deals with some internal faculties is a barrier which will be eroded. As said earlier what we call external and what we call internal are self imposed borders. If one digs deeper - the demarcation gets lost. This is exciting as we hope to see some excellent interrelations developing between the findings of say relativity, quantum mechanics and spiritual ideas. The confidence I have is derived from the teachings of Vivekananda and my background of theoretical physics. jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > would like to start a thead on the definition > of > ultimate reality. May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 Jerry M. Katz [umbada] Monday, May 10, 1999 9:12 AM advaitin Re: Ultimate reality "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada > would like to start a thead on the definition > of > ultimate reality. May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. Harsha: A blank sheet of paper has edges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada > would like to start a thead on the definition > of > ultimate reality. >May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. >Harsha: A blank sheet of paper has edges. Linda: LOL ------ The Final Countdown is here! http://www.ONElist.com Join the "Star Wars" craze at ONElist. ------ Discussion of the True Meaning of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy focusing on non-duality between mind and matter. List Archives available at: /viewarchive.cgi?listname=advaitin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: > > > "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada > > > would like to start a thead on the definition > > of > > ultimate reality. > > May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. > > Harsha: A blank sheet of paper has edges. > ho ho! why discriminate against the poor edges? they're great for breakfast, toasted with jam... anyway, what do they specifically have to do with 'ultimate reality'? seems more like we can't reference anything *apart* from 'ultimate reality.' hariH OM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 Tim Gerchmez [fewtch] Monday, May 10, 1999 3:49 PM advaitin Re: Ultimate reality "Tim Gerchmez" <fewtch Jerry didn't specify the size of the blank sheet of paper ;-) An infinitely large sheet has no edges. Harsha: Perhaps. To say that in Ultimate Reality there are no edges implies a subject who remains separate from the Ultimate Reality to distinguish whether edges remain or not. Sages indicate to us that the Ultimate Reality cannot be thought of or conceptualized, but It can be Known. It cannot be known in the way that one knows an object. It Is known as the Self, One's Own Self, One without a second. To try to think of the Self might be useful up to a point, but that also is just a thought. Ramana Maharshi touches on the central point in this dialogue. Devotee: How is one to think of the Self? Ramana Maharshi: The Self is self-luminous without darkness and light, and is the reality which is self-manifest. Therefore, one should not think of it as this or as that. The very thought of thinking will end in bondage. The purport of meditation on the Self is to make the mind take the form of the Self. In the middle of the heart-cave the pure Brahman is directly manifest as the Self in the form 'I-I'. Can there be greater ignorance than to think of it in manifold ways, without knowing it as aforementioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 f. maiello [egodust] Monday, May 10, 1999 5:43 PM advaitin Re: Ultimate reality "f. maiello" <egodust Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: > > > "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada > > > would like to start a thead on the definition > > of > > ultimate reality. > > May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. > > Harsha: A blank sheet of paper has edges. > ho ho! why discriminate against the poor edges? they're great for breakfast, toasted with jam... anyway, what do they specifically have to do with 'ultimate reality'? seems more like we can't reference anything *apart* from 'ultimate reality.' hariH OM! I was just trying to be funny. Sri Ram ji did say not to feel shy and stuff. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada > > > would like to start a thead on the definition > > of > > ultimate reality. > > > May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. The search for the ultimate reality is like the search for the ultimate particle, requiring more energy to make than the entire universe can provide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 At 05:51 PM 5/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar >Harsha: Perhaps. To say that in Ultimate Reality there are no edges implies >a subject who remains separate from the Ultimate Reality to distinguish >whether edges remain or not. How so? Would a self-aware piece of paper not be aware whether or not it had edges? >Sages indicate to us that the Ultimate Reality >cannot be thought of or conceptualized, but It can be Known. It cannot be >known in the way that one knows an object. Of course this is correct, so if a description is asked for, one description is as good as any other. Many have compared Ultimate Reality (Ground of Being, Brahman) to an infinite sea. Others have compared It to an endless, bright clear light. Jerry's description is as good as any other I have seen. One may even compare Ultimate Reality to a flower or a blade of grass or a bird. After all, maya cannot be separated from Brahman. >Ramana Maharshi: The Self is self-luminous without darkness and light, See, even Ramana Maharshi tries to describe the indescribable (before going on to say It cannot be described). The question was asked, "How would one describe ultimate reality?" There are three possible answers: (a) To remain silent and say nothing (b) To say "Ultimate reality cannot be described." © To use some kind of extremely rough approximation of that which cannot be described. Jerry chose the third possibility. Seemed good enough to me. Hari OM, Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 At 09:48 PM 5/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >Ram Chandran <chandran > >Statements such as from Jerry indicate that the 'mind' is conditioned! The mind is not conditioned. The mind is *conditioning* itself. >We can reach the 'ultimate reality' when we free the mind from >conditioning. I would revise that a bit. We are already the Ultimate Reality, and we can remove the blindfold that prevents us from seeing the Truth of that. The blind fold is the mind, and the mind is conditioning. Remove conditioning, and there is no more blockage to see our true nature. >We have to get all examples, symbols and notions out of the mind. If this were done, no mind would remain. Hari OM, Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 Statements such as from Jerry indicate that the 'mind' is conditioned! We can reach the 'ultimate reality' when we free the mind from conditioning. We all perceive the nature of a blank sheet of paper and we immediately recognize the edges and their utilities or problems associated with the edges! A conditioned mind never stops creating thoughts and stands as a barrier to experience the ultimate reality. We have to get all examples, symbols and notions out of the mind. We have learnt how to do and to understand the ultimate reality we have to undo! -- Ram Chandran Burke, VA > "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada > May I offer that ultimate reality is like a blank sheet of paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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