Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 > >Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy > >However, it seems to me while it may make sense to use that analogy >in dvaita and vishishhTAdvaita, in advaita, that terminology (analogy) >may not be really appropriate. My humble apologies if anyone thinks >I am questioning Shri Shankara here, but I am looking for clarification. > >Because in advaita, the ocean of saMsAra does not have two banks. It >has no starting bank because avidyA is anAdi (without beginning Murthy gaaru - As I understand all aachaaryaas accept that avidya is anaadi, it is not only by advaita. It has to be - ignorence cannot have a begining. The ignorence which is the cause for bondage is different according to different aachaaryaas. While in adviata it refers to non-knowing oneself in dwaita and vishishTaadvaita the avidya refeers to not knowing ones dependence on Iswara and not knowing the nature of the Lord and the nature of the Jeeva. Tha avidya is also anaadi. There are no banks in the ocean of samsaara in any mata. that is the reason they use ocean rather than sea. It is endless. crossing the ocean is figurative and does not mean that one reaches a bank but gets out of the notion of samsaara. Understanding that there is no ocean to begin with! This is true even in dwaita - it is maaya kalpita samsaar and can be crossed only by the grace of NaarayaNa, te Lord, since maya is his power no one by just self effort can overcome that, and all one has to do surrender oneself recognizing his dependence on the Lord. Hence there is no difference in the concepts and neither Shankara advovates some banks for the ocean to reach. The words if at all used are only figurative. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 1999 Report Share Posted July 30, 1999 namaste. We refer to our worldly life as the ocean of saMsAra. The various Hindu philosophical thoughts (advaita, dvaita, vishishhTAdvaita) refer to what is known as the crossing of the ocean of saMsAra. The impression usually given (or what I took up till now) is: that there are the two banks of the ocean and when we cross this ocean, we have attained moksha. Even the advaita text (VivekachUDAmaNi) uses this analogy. However, it seems to me while it may make sense to use that analogy in dvaita and vishishhTAdvaita, in advaita, that terminology (analogy) may not be really appropriate. My humble apologies if anyone thinks I am questioning Shri Shankara here, but I am looking for clarification. Because in advaita, the ocean of saMsAra does not have two banks. It has no starting bank because avidyA is anAdi (without beginning). It has no bank where we end up after crossing the ocean. A more correct description in advaita may be: the ocean of saMsAra suddenly disappears (on enlightenment) on SELF-realization. There is no destination bank, where we come out of the ocean and reach the bank and still after putting the feet on the ground, still see the ocean of saMsAra. It cannot take place that way. The only way is for ocean to suddenly disappear or see the ocean of saMsAra as mithyA. This crossing of the ocean of saMsAra is akin to climbing the deep well of ignorance (I used this analogy for ignorance in one of my postings many months ago). As we climb up the well, the climbed portion of the well disappears. When we finally climb out of the well of ignorance, the whole well disappears. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 1999 Report Share Posted July 31, 1999 Gummuluru Murthy legitimately questions the analogy of the 'banks of samsara'. In advaita particularly, if you carry the analogies too far it will become inappropriate. Any discussion using analogies to talk about the Absolute Reality can be torn apart to prove that we are not really being at the advaita level. At the ideal plane of advaita no talk is possible. The Guru is silent and the disciples' doubts are all gone! Anyway, to answer Gummuluru Murthy's question, here is Gaudapada, Sankara's Parama-guru, writing in GaudapAda-kArikA III - 48: na kaScit jAyate jIvaH sambhavo'sya na vidyate / etat-tad-uttamam satyam yatra kimcit na jAyate // meaning: No jIva is ever born. There does not exist any cause which can produce it. This is the highest Truth that nothing is ever born. Sankara's Commentary on the above: All the ideas re: the discipline of the mind evolution resembling the creation of forms from iron and clay as well as the ideas regarding devotional exercises, are given as means to the realisation of the nature of the Ultimate Reality. They have in themselves no meaning whatsoever. The Truth regarding the Ultimate Reality is that no Jiva is ever born. .... .... This alone is the supreme Truth that nothing whatsoever is ever born in or of that brahman which is of the nature of the Ultimate Reality. So Answer to Gummuluru Murthy's Question is: Where is the samsAra? ! The verse that I have pulled out above is not an isolated quotation torn from its context. The whole theme of GaudapAdakArikA III Chapter is that there is no samsAra. The verse quoted above is the very last. Pranams to all advaitins. Profvk === Prof. V. Krishnamurthy You are invited to visit my latest book entitled GEMS FROM THE OCEAN OF HINDU THOUGHT VISION AND PRACTICE at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/2952/gohitvip/contents.html ___________ Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 1999 Report Share Posted July 31, 1999 >While I have Shri Sadananda's attention, let me ask for clarification >of something which he mentioned above: about the role of avidyA and >avidyA being anAdi in dvaita and vishishhTAdvaita. > >My understanding is: the role of avidyA is quite distinct in all the >three systems. While in advaita, avidyA is THE most important factor, >in the other two systems, avidyA plays only a minor and even an >insignificant role. Is there a role at all for avidyA in dvaita ? > >Although I do not know much about vishishhTAdvaita, I feel one of the >main contentions of Shri Ramanuja against advaita is the locus of avidyA >and too much importance given to avidyA in advaita. How does Shri Ramanuja >explain avidyA is anAdi in vishishhTAdvaita ? I can see the advaitic >explanation (of avidyA is anAdi) but not dvaitic or vishishhTAdvaitic. > > >Regards >Gummuluru Murthy gaaru As I understand in VishisTaadviata and I am sure dwaita as well, the bondage of the eternal jeevaas is the lack of knowledge of their dependence on the Lord. Essentially lack of understanding of the Indenpendent nature of the Lord and their dependent nature. Hence they neither know swaswaruupam (thier intrinsic nature) and Paramaatmaswaruupam. Lord out of compassion provides the grosser world the jeevas can play with and learn in the process. Here the creation is only the grosification of the subtle exitence of the world and Jeevas. Only Lord can do that - that part is his Leela vibhuuti. Since they donot know neither true identity and their dependence on the Lord, because of that ignorence they get caught up in the samsaar. If you ask Ramanuja the question when they start not knowing their nature or the nature of the Lord - then he has to resort to the same satement that ignorence is anaadi. Hence all acaryas agree on that. The difference and the objection of Raamanuja about advaita is that identity of Jeeva with Brahman and now it comes down to Brahman has ignorence since he was alone there in the begining according to advaita. In advaita the ignorence is given the prominence as it is the material cause for the creation - avidya is maaya and maaya is the prakriti and prakriti is the material cause. Hence it is positive quantity playing a major role in the creation process. How this is done - it is said as anirvachaniiyam - or inexplainable and Ramanuja takes a strong objection to that. Indirectly even according to Ramanuja the knowledge is the means of solvation and it is the knowledge of the Lord and his glories that help the Jeeva to identify his true role. That knowledge can only come by the grace of the Lord. Hence the importance to the B.G. sloka daiviimeshhaa gunamai mama maaya duratyaya| maamevaye prapadyante maayametaam tarantite|| Krishna says this maya of mine is very difficult to cross since it is of divine origin. It can be crossed only by complete surrenderence to me. Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 1999 Report Share Posted July 31, 1999 On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote: > "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda > > > > >Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy > > > > >However, it seems to me while it may make sense to use that analogy > >in dvaita and vishishhTAdvaita, in advaita, that terminology (analogy) > >may not be really appropriate. My humble apologies if anyone thinks > >I am questioning Shri Shankara here, but I am looking for clarification. > > > >Because in advaita, the ocean of saMsAra does not have two banks. It > >has no starting bank because avidyA is anAdi (without beginning > > Murthy gaaru - As I understand all aachaaryaas accept that avidya is anaadi, > it is not only by advaita. It has to be - ignorence cannot have a begining. > The ignorence which is the cause for bondage is different according to > different aachaaryaas. > > While in adviata it refers to non-knowing oneself in dwaita and > vishishTaadvaita the avidya refeers to not knowing ones dependence on Iswara > and not knowing the nature of the Lord and the nature of the Jeeva. Tha > avidya is also anaadi. > > There are no banks in the ocean of samsaara in any mata. that is the reason > they use ocean rather than sea. It is endless. crossing the ocean is > figurative and does not mean that one reaches a bank but gets out of the > notion of samsaara. Understanding that there is no ocean to begin with! > This is true even in dwaita - it is maaya kalpita samsaar and can be crossed > only by the grace of NaarayaNa, te Lord, since maya is his power no one by > just self effort can overcome that, and all one has to do surrender oneself > recognizing his dependence on the Lord. Hence there is no difference in the > concepts and neither Shankara advovates some banks for the ocean to reach. > The words if at all used are only figurative. > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > namaste. It is nice to hear from Shri Sadananda garu again. Yes, I think I am guilty of looking at that analogy in a naive way. If we look at it figuratively, it may be a justifiable analogy, even in advaita. While I have Shri Sadananda's attention, let me ask for clarification of something which he mentioned above: about the role of avidyA and avidyA being anAdi in dvaita and vishishhTAdvaita. My understanding is: the role of avidyA is quite distinct in all the three systems. While in advaita, avidyA is THE most important factor, in the other two systems, avidyA plays only a minor and even an insignificant role. Is there a role at all for avidyA in dvaita ? Although I do not know much about vishishhTAdvaita, I feel one of the main contentions of Shri Ramanuja against advaita is the locus of avidyA and too much importance given to avidyA in advaita. How does Shri Ramanuja explain avidyA is anAdi in vishishhTAdvaita ? I can see the advaitic explanation (of avidyA is anAdi) but not dvaitic or vishishhTAdvaitic. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 1999 Report Share Posted August 1, 1999 On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, V. Krishnamurthy wrote: > "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk > > [...] > ... This alone is the supreme Truth that nothing whatsoever is ever born > in or of that brahman which is of the nature of the Ultimate Reality. > So Answer to Gummuluru Murthy's Question is: Where is the samsAra? ! > The verse that I have pulled out above is not an isolated quotation torn > from its context. The whole theme of GaudapAdakArikA III Chapter is that > there is no samsAra. The verse quoted above is the very last. > Pranams to all advaitins. > Profvk > > === > Prof. V. Krishnamurthy > You are invited to visit my latest book entitled GEMS FROM THE OCEAN OF HINDU THOUGHT VISION AND PRACTICE at > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/2952/gohitvip/contents.html namaste. I am grateful to Professor Krishnamurthy for his very appropriate reference to GauDapAdakArika and Shri Shankara's commentary on it. Of course, where is saMsAra ? It is not there. Now, if there is no saMsAra, there is no moksha either. Liberation from saMsAra is moksha, and without saMsAra, there is no moksha. Does the GauDapAdakArika touch on this ? Please also see my two posts on the thread SELF-knowing in this context. Regards Gummuluru Murthy ------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 1999 Report Share Posted August 2, 1999 Please feel free to link these urls on any site you like the siva library files are in help file format. here are the URL's main page is: http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/tlink.html Siva library is: http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/downloads.html Direct links to download the siva library files are: If you insert them into a web page as shown below each link will bring up the download box in the browser without going to the site. <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/astavakra.zip">Astavakra Gita</A> The Astavakra Gita Is a very old Yoga Text from the Vedanta Period <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/savitri.zip">Savitri</A> Savitri is a contemporary Indian classic written by One Sri-Aurobindo <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/kural.zip">The Holy Kural</A> Also called the Tikural Saint Tiruvalluvar (130 BC) <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/tiruman.zip">The Tirumantiram</A> Is considered the final authority on subtle matters of philosophy and theology in Saiva Siddhanta <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/siva.zip">The Siva Sutras</A> Sage Vasugupta the discoverer of ShivaSutras was the guru of Kallata. He is believed to have flourished in the beginning of the 9th century A.D. <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/library.zip">The Complete Siva Library</A> This file Contains the COMPLETE list of files above in an integrated help file <A HREF="http://www.upnaway.com/~sulea/downloads/sansdiction.zip"><b>The Sanscrit Dictionary</B></A> More will be added to the dictionary and the page over time so perhaps download it again when the updated icon is displayed in the previous field. The Avadhuta Gita ----- Coming Soon (Check BACK soon) ********************************************************************* The whole web site is in the process of a full editing and upgrade of all the files available many of the files there were written live to students on line, especially the chat files. While some of them may be gramatically sloppy at the moment there are many many more which aren't We hope it is a useful site to serious seekers. Jagananda and Sulea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Some people may find this interesting http://top-opp-marketing.com.au/secure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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