smr^tir labdhA in BG18.73 [ was: the case for jeeva not the same from moment to moment]

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Max Harris wrote:

> "Max Harris" <max_harris

>

> I would like to apply my two points about

> Jiva vs. ego and remembering vs. memory

> to Ch. 18, v. 73 of the Gita, as cited by Ram:

>

> >In Verse 73, the student, Arjun replies affirmatively:

> >

> >nasto mohah smrtir labdhaa tvatprasaadaan mayaa ‘cyuta

> >sthito ‘smi gatasmdehah karisye vacanam tava

> >

> >My illusion is destroyed and I have regained my true identity through

> >your Grace. O Achyta (Krishna), I stand firm to complete my commitment

> >and all my doubts have been dispelled. I shall obey and act according

> >to your wish.

>

> >A Jnana Yogi gets the liberation by focusing his attention just like

> >Arjun's expression in Verse 73 of chapter 18. In Verse 73, Arjun's reply

> >contain two profound words: "Smrtir Labdha" (memory regained). The human

> >life is the Grace of God and the seeker forgets this Truth and seeks to

> >remember the forgotten Truth about his/her Divine ancestry.

>

> If "Smrtir Labdha" can mean "memory regained," it suggests

> the following ideas to me:

>

> First, that liberation can be accomplished via a remembering

> of a deep Truth; hence the act of remembering can be liberating instead of

binding, depending on what is being remembered.

>

> Second, If the ego is viewed as a life-specific formation

> within a Jivatman which transcends lives, then it might be

> said that a remembering which draws primarily from ego-level

> memory traces is binding, whereas a remembering which goes

> deeper than ego-level memory traces can be liberating. As

> the ego grows into the Jivatman and is assimilated by it,

> remembering gradually becomes less ego-constitutive and more

> more of a Self-realization ("I have regained my true identity").

>

> Third, the memory store of the Jivatman is not limited to

> the memory traces it acquires from each incarnation, and from

> the imaginal activity of each ego formation. The Jivatman

> possesses knowledge (memories?) reflective of its origin

> and sustaining source. Hence the Truth is within us.

>

> -- Max

>

 

 

namaste. First, I changed the subject of the thread to smr^tir

labdhA which reflects more the content of this post.

 

As I understand, there are some difficulties with the above analysis.

 

If smr^tir labdhA: = memory regained = remembered,

It then means: Out of the huge amount of information that is cluttering

or stored in the mind, or wherever that is kept, pick up one piece of

information.

 

If we interpret smr^tir labdhA that way, it means Arjuna seems to be

saying: "... O yes, I remember my true identity, I am Brahman...".

But that is not realization and that is not Brahman for the following

reasons.

 

1. If you know you are Brahman, you can never forget It and then

remember It.

 

2. Knowing Brahman is not a faculty of the mind. It is something

beyond the mind, and beyond smr^ti (beyond remembering, beyond

memory).

 

3. "I am Brahman" is not a retrievable piece of information. If that

is the case, you remember it today, and you may forget it tomorrow.

That is not the way Brahman is realized, as the upanishads repeatedly

say.

 

4. Arjuna has not realized Brahman at that stage of learing BG18.73.

This is in spite of VishwarUpadarshanam, and being taught by the

greatest of the teachers, Lord Krishna. Arjuna has still to go

through the war, the sufferings associated with the killings of

the next of kin and so on. Further, Arjuna attains swarga loka

only and not Brahman realization.

 

Thus, smr^tir labdhA may be interpreted as Arjuna saying " I remember

what my duty is." only.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

Namaskar Murthygaru:

 

Thanks for your enthusiastic reply with detailed and thoughtful

explanations. I like your interpretation of smr^tir labdha and it is

quite appropriate at the given context of Mahabharat war and the

resurgence of Arjun to fight the war.

 

I believe that Bhagavad Gita goes beyond Arjun and Mahabharat war and we

should prepare our mind to accept the subtle messages that are relevant

for all human being in dealing with day to day life. I agree that we

should be more cautious in our interpretations and conclusions.

 

The verses 72 and 73 are last of the two verses spoken by the Guru (Lord

Krishna) and the seeker (Arjun). The Guru asks the final question and

student answers affirmatively and both the student and the Guru are

fully satisfied. This climax scene was staged by Vedavyasa to awaken the

Vedic Civilization to regain and retain its past glory.

 

Swami Chinmayananda gives the following interpretation to Verse 73:

 

“Somewhat like one who has suddenly awakened from an unconscious state,

Arjuna with a regained self-recognition assuredly confesses that his

confusions have ended-not because he has implicitly swallowed the

arguements in the discourses of the Gita, but because, as Arjun himself

says, ‘I have gained a recognition of my real nature. The hero in my has

been now awakened and the neurotic condition that had temporarily

conquered my mind has been totally driven out.’

 

Such a revival within an a rediscovery of our personality are possible

for all of us if only we truly understand the significance of the Gita

philosophy. The infinite nature of Perfection is our own; It is not

something that we have to gain from somewhere at the intervention of

some outer agency. This angelic and mighty Being within ourselves is now

lying veiled beneath our own egocentric confusions also end, and we get

awakened to our real nature. So too in life. This awakening of the

angel in us is the ending of the beast within.”

 

Regards,

 

Ram Chandran

Burke VA

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>

>namaste. First, I changed the subject of the thread to smr^tir

>labdhA which reflects more the content of this post.

> ...................

>Thus, smr^tir labdhA may be interpreted as Arjuna saying " I remember

>what my duty is." only.

>

>Regards

>Gummuluru Murthy

[Guest guest]

On ch. 18 verses 72 and 73 of the Gita: I have been pondering the

interpretation of these verses in the light of our discussion,

and not knowing Sanskrit I have pondered various English

translations and commentaries, and I reach the following

humble conclusions:

 

I think that Arjuna is remembering more than just his duty

in verse 73, but I also acknowledge that what he is realizing

is something less than the fullest Brahman-realization. I think

the most appropriate interpretations of Verses 72 & 73 would

point to something in between merely remembering his duty and

fullest Brahman-relaization.

 

When Krishna asks Arjuna in verse 72, "Has the delusion of

ignorance now been destroyed?" and Arjuna answers in verse

73 "My delusion is destroyed, and by your grace I have regained

memory," I think the Gita is indicating that Krishna's discourse

and theophany have enabled Arjuna to "remember" deep self-knowledge

that not only clarified his duty, but also cleared his vision and

strengthened his heart. I suspect this deep self-knowledge is

the kind of "partial Brahman-realization" that Veronica was

talking about in her recent post. I think it is also what

Swami Chinmayananda was talking about in the quote which

Ram Chandran shared with us:

>Swami Chinmayananda gives the following interpretation to Verse 73:

>

>“Somewhat like one who has suddenly awakened from an unconscious state,

>Arjuna with a regained self-recognition assuredly confesses that his

>confusions have ended-not because he has implicitly swallowed the

>arguements in the discourses of the Gita, but because, as Arjun himself

>says, ‘I have gained a recognition of my real nature. The hero in my has

>been now awakened and the neurotic condition that had temporarily

>conquered my mind has been totally driven out.’

>

>Such a revival within an a rediscovery of our personality are possible

>for all of us if only we truly understand the significance of the Gita

>philosophy. The infinite nature of Perfection is our own; It is not

>something that we have to gain from somewhere at the intervention of

>some outer agency. This angelic and mighty Being within ourselves is now

>lying veiled beneath our own egocentric confusions also end, and we get

>awakened to our real nature. So too in life. This awakening of the

>angel in us is the ending of the beast within.”

 

Not knowing Sanskrit and not being a Vedanta scholar,

I offer these thoughts with humility.

 

Namaste,

-- Max

 

 

---------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Max,

 

> Max Harris wrote:

I think that Arjuna is remembering more than just his duty

in verse 73, but I also acknowledge that what he is realizing

is something less than the fullest Brahman-realization. I think

the most appropriate interpretations of Verses 72 & 73 would

point to something in between merely remembering his duty and

fullest Brahman-relaization.<

 

Please excuse my interjection:

 

This final part of the dialogue between Krsna and Arjuna I feel is, indeed,

the final act of complete surrender of the JivAtman. And as such is the

fullest realization.

Arjuna says the following:

 

1) mohah nashTah - " Delusion is destroyed."

2) smrtih mayA labdhah - "Memory (remembrance) has been regained."

3) sthitah asmi - "I am firm."

4) gata samdehah - "I am freed from doubt."

And interestingly he calls Krsna in this verse "Achyuta", which means

"Imperishable or One who does not swerve from his Real nature." The import

of this epithet is that in his complete surrender to the divinity he becomes

That.

 

It is also worth noting that Krsna acknowledges Arjuna by the epithet

"Dhananjaya", "Winner of the prize", in the previous verse, 72.

 

Regards

Miles