Jivanmukta

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Thank you to Gummuluru Murthy for the excellent discourse on Maya, it was

very clear and well reasoned. Possibly one question arises .... when it is

said that maya "disappears" when Brahman is realized, as sometimes people

think that the world should disappear at this moment...and questions follow

concerning how the world remains after a single person is realized? and/or

how a realized person can still appear to be in a body and function in

the"world?" The following is an excerpt from a book in which Ammachi talks

about the state of Jivanmukta. It helped me grapple with these questions:

 

"A lion made of sandalwood is real to a child, but to a grownup it's a piece

of sandalwood. For the child, the wood is concealed, revealing only the lion.

The grownup may also enjoy the lion, but he knows it is not real. For him,

the wood is real, and not the lion.

"In the same way, to a jivanmukta, the entire universe is nothing but the

essence, the 'wood', that everything is made of, the Absolute Brahman or

Consciousness.

"The world doesn't disappear before the jivanmukta's eyes. Everything

continues as it is. Nothing changes. The sun doesn't stop rising on the

western horizon when someone attains realization. However, a change happens

inwardly. You perceive the world from a different level of consciousness. For

the jivanmukta, everything is permeated with God, with pure, undivided

Consciousness. Just as the wooden lion is still a piece of wood to a grownup,

the jivanmukta beholds everything as the Paramatman, the Supreme Self. The

world of names and forms still exits, but he perceives the inner essence of

everything. Being in the state of jivanmuki doesn't mean that you lose your

body. You can stay in your body and continue to function in the world, but

your identification with the body has ceased. You become an observer, a

witness. You stop experiencing the world from the outside. You observe

everything from within, from the true center of existence."

pg. 136, Awaken Children, vol. 9

 

Jai Muktida,

Parvati

[Guest guest]

Hari Om Parvathijai:

 

I second what you have stated on the fine article on mAyA from

Gummuluruji. The nature of Jivamukta has also described beautifully in

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2, Verse 71. This verse explains the essence of

the Vedantic philosophy in a nutshell. This verse in poetic form uses a

powerful simile to describe the transformation of human soul after its

merger with the divinity! The divine qualities of the Self-realized

soul are described in no uncertain terms.

 

Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, Verse 70:

 

Aapuryamaanam acala-pratistham samudram aapah pravisanti yadvat

tadvat kama yam pravisanti sarve sa saantim aapnoti na kaama-kaami

 

He unto whom all desires enter as waters into the sea, which, though

ever being filled is ever motionless, attains to peace and not he who

hugs his desires. When rivers reach the ocean, they are no more called

rivers and the qualities of the river disappear instantaneously. When

the materialistic human becomes spiritual, he/she he transforms into

the Brahman. There is no better substitute than ocean to represent

Eternal Truth. The vast boundless ocean is motionless, contented and

serene.

 

The nerve center for human desires is mind which undergoes changes with

the spiritual growth. Rain waters represent the desires and rivers

represent the spiritual path to human life. A spiritual path requires

dedication, determination, love and discipline to divert our desires to

satisfy community needs and abandon selfishness. Spiritual life has a

sense of direction, purpose and destination. The waters of the rivers

flow through the planet for the survival of the subjects which include

humans, animals, plants and insects. The spiritual person, similarly,

proceeds the life with desires and duties for the betterment of the

society. The river merging with the ocean is the symbolic union of

Atman and Brahman. Just like the rivers which became the ocean, the

spiritual people become the Brahman. The human mind vanishes to become

the Divine mind and True Divine Nature is reestablished. The True

Divine Nature establishes the PURE Mind and all desires are fulfilled

without experiencing plurality. It retains the Stable Mind, Peace,

Happiness, Kindness, Goodness, Generosity and Love. This verse also

contains a subtle message on the Nature of the Brahman! At the realized

stage desires do not disappear but all those desires will have no effect

on the Pure Divine Mind of the Jivamukta. For the Jiva, the mind flows

like the river and for the Jivamukta, the mind stays without any flow

and it stands still!

 

Ram Chandran

Burke, VA

 

 

Parvatijai wrote:

>

> Parvatijai

>

> Namaste,

>

> Thank you to Gummuluru Murthy for the excellent discourse on Maya, it was

> very clear and well reasoned. Possibly one question arises .... when it is

> said that maya "disappears" when Brahman is realized, as sometimes people

> think that the world should disappear at this moment...and questions follow

> concerning how the world remains after a single person is realized? and/or

> how a realized person can still appear to be in a body and function in

> the"world?" The following is an excerpt from a book in which Ammachi talks

> about the state of Jivanmukta. It helped me grapple with these questions:

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 Parvatijai wrote:

> Parvatijai

>

> Namaste,

>

> Thank you to Gummuluru Murthy for the excellent discourse on Maya, it was

> very clear and well reasoned. Possibly one question arises .... when it is

> said that maya "disappears" when Brahman is realized, as sometimes people

> think that the world should disappear at this moment...and questions follow

> concerning how the world remains after a single person is realized? and/or

> how a realized person can still appear to be in a body and function in

> the"world?" The following is an excerpt from a book in which Ammachi talks

> about the state of Jivanmukta. It helped me grapple with these questions:

>

> [excellent excerpt deleted]

 

namaste and thanks for the generous comment.

 

mAyA disappears or vanishes when Brahman is realized. That does not mean

the world disappears. The world continues to appear in its full duality,

except our outlook of the world changes. This has been so nicely brought

forward in that excellent excerpt from Ammachi's works. Thanks for that

excerpt which gives me confidence in my understanding.

 

Another question that I would hope to have a clear understanding is:

"For whose is this moksha?"

 

If we take the example of a jivanmukta in our midst (like Shri RamaNa,

for example), we the mortals say that Shri RamaNa has attained moksha

(jivanmukta). I think it is a statement still based in ignorance.

'Shri RamaNa' has not attained moksha. Shri RamaNa, as we know in

his early days, is no longer there. That individuality has disappeared.

Shri RamaNa (jivanmukta) does not think He is Shri RamaNa. It is we

the ordinary mortals who keep the continuity of this individual jeeva,

who think it is Shri RamaNa that attained moksha. But that is not the

case.

 

Shri RamaNa of AruNachala is in his permanent blissful state. My thinking

is that it is only from the avidyA perspective that there is moksha

(as well as liberation and bondage). It is meaningless also to talk of

what is the perspective from Shri RamaNa (jivanmukta's) point of view.

That is, there is no moksha, no liberation, no bondage. So, is there

an attainment of moksha then? And if so, who or to whom do we ascribe

this moksha?

 

Is there any talk or writings of Ammachi on this matter?

>

> Jai Muktida,

> Parvati

>

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/21/1999 11:15:14 AM Central Daylight Time,

gmurthy writes:

 

<< If we take the example of a jivanmukta in our midst (like Shri RamaNa,

for example), we the mortals say that Shri RamaNa has attained moksha

(jivanmukta). I think it is a statement still based in ignorance.

'Shri RamaNa' has not attained moksha. Shri RamaNa, as we know in

his early days, is no longer there. That individuality has disappeared.

Shri RamaNa (jivanmukta) does not think He is Shri RamaNa. It is we

the ordinary mortals who keep the continuity of this individual jeeva,

who think it is Shri RamaNa that attained moksha. >>

<some deleted text>

<<So, is there

an attainment of moksha then? And if so, who or to whom do we ascribe

this moksha?

 

Is there any talk or writings of Ammachi on this matter?>>

 

Namaste Gummuluru Murthy and fellow advaitinlisters,

 

Though Ammachi has spoken concerning Sri Ramana as a realized soul and gives

examples from His life and teachings, She has not addressed the subject of

your inquiry specifically about Him.(At least not that I was able to locate -

I will continue to search.) However, there was an inquiry by a devotee as to

whether Ammachi Herself was an avatar, which may give you the confirmation

that you seek for the very veritable insight that you presented.

>From Awaken Children, vol. 9, pg. 140:

 

"'the man asked, 'Amma, are you an avatar? Are you the Divine Mother? Are you

Adi Parashakti (the Supreme Power)?'

Mother: 'You may call this body by any name you like. Some call it Amma

(Mother), some Devi or Krishna, yet others consider it to be a Buddha or a

Christ. There are many who call this body Amritanandamayi and other names.

There are also those who criticize this body. It doesn't matter to Amma what

you call Her. The Truth, the inner Self, remains eternally the same-

immutable and unaffected. No one can pierce the mystery of this pure being.'

(She continued) 'The word 'avatar' means to descend. The infinite

Consciousness descends into the world, assuming a human form for the sake of

uplifting and saving humanity. However, this is only from the standpoint of

the devotee, because there is no space for the infinite consciousness to come

and go. Where could that which is infinite and all-pervasive possibly descend

or ascend to? There's not an extra inch of space in which to move. Ascending

and descending exist only for those who do not experience their oneness with

the Supreme Reality. When you are one with the ocean of Sat-Chit-Ananda,

there is no question of coming or going.

(She Continues) 'One could say that when a soul attains realization, the clay

pot in the ocean breaks, and the water inside the pot merges with the water

that surrounds it, so that there is nothing but water everywhere. Here the

ocean represents the infinite Consciousness or the Paramatman, and the clay

pot is the individual self. In the ultimate state of realization, your

individuality or body-consciousness disappears. You merge with the Infinite

and go beyond all limitations. For an avatar, however, there was never a clay

pot to break, for he or she has always been one with the Supreme."

 

Her words appear to confirm your insight, that it is only for those who

remain in individual separate consciousness that see Moksha as being attained

by a person, The former person themself no longer remains, so who is it that

has attained Moksha? All that remains is Brahman, or as Ammachi put it so

well in Her analogy, all that remains is the water, there is no longer a pot.

It is the individual jeeva that sees time progressing in a linear fashion in

which seemingly separate individual humans attain Self-Realization, But from

the perspective of the omniscient Supreme - Self, the "pure being" has and

always will be existent, so when someone who previously considered themselves

separate, then merges with that consciousness, the illusion of time would

also disappear along with the illusion of a separate self. As you put quite

well..

>>It is we the ordinary mortals who keep the continuity of this individual

jeeva.<<

 

As long as we still think of ourselves as separate we continue to see a

separation that in Truth does not exist. We are the same Paramatman as Sri

Ramana and Mata Amritanandamayi, but simply saying this does not make us

realize it as a Truth, only the experience itself is the Truth. However,

contemplation on this will take us closer....and eventually (in terms of our

finite mind's temporal nature) we will achieve liberation (moksha), once

having done so, realizing that we were never really separate so there was no

bondage to be liberated from.

 

Jai Desa Kala Paricchinna

sincerely,

Parvati

[Guest guest]

Parvatijai wrote:

>

> "The world doesn't disappear before the jivanmukta's eyes. Everything

> continues as it is. Nothing changes. The sun doesn't stop rising on the

> western horizon when someone attains realization. However, a change happens

> inwardly. You perceive the world from a different level of consciousness.

> For the jivanmukta, everything is permeated with God, with pure, undivided

> Consciousness. ... [...] "

 

 

namaskaar

 

Ammachi's observation cannot be emphasized enough.

 

essentially, simply:

 

the only condition where illusion arises is

if any conceivable thought or thing in Life is

considered to be an exclusive reality *apart* from

its substratum Source in the Absolute (brahman).

aside from that, everything is real and is in

fact brahman Itself. this is advaita vedanta.

 

elaborating further:

 

(i have posted this basic observation many times

to this and the advaitin-l lists over the years.

however, it's worth approaching it from various

angles for the sake of focusing on the main point)

 

Sankara's tripartite formula is the whole of Vedanta.

however, understanding it clearly, and therefore

benefiting from its practical application, depends

on being able to comprehend the full implication of

what is specifically being postulated as non-dual.

 

evaluating:

 

the literal translation of the Third Axiom: "jiva

(or jivatman) is equivalent to brahman." [is the

same as saying atman = brahman]

 

now, although this is true, the problem is if we stop

there, with that definition and its implication, we're

getting only part of the whole story. this is, however,

depending on the definition we give to the word jiva.

if by jiva is meant, therefore, the egocentric persona

*exclusive* of the world, is a limited view, and causes

a problem in the form of a barrier to the potential

full comprehension of advaita itself. let me explain.

 

as we know, there are two basic Creation theories.

let's refer to them as the substantial and the mental

theory. The substantial or Gradual Creation Theory

(srishthi-drishthi vada) claims perception [or thought]

follows substance, and the mental or Spontaneous

Creation Theory (drishthi-srishthi vada) tells us

that substance follows perception [or thought].

 

now, if we fail to go beyond the substantial theory,

we will fail to see or understand how the world can be

within the jiva. we would maintain that it is, in fact,

apart and external to jiva--causing a *third* realm of

consideration, complicating everything unnecessarily.

 

therefore, in order to be able to understand that the

world is within jiva, we have to be able to realize

the validity of drishthi-srishthi vada or Spontaneous

Creation. That the Universal Mind, which the jiva is

intimately connected to, has really caused the creation

of the world.

 

therefore the Third Axiom implies that the entirety of

What Is [in Manifestation], including jiva, jagat, and

isvara, is brahman itself. as the Upanishads tell us,

"All this, verily, is brahman." All is ONE Being, yet

expressing itself infinitely.

 

Bhagavan Ramana is also saying this. He's translated

also, in fact, Sankara's Third Axiom as, "brahman is the

world." (i can find this quote if anyone is interested)

it should be clear however within this context that jiva

and jagat are interchangeable in meaning here--because

they represent the same thing: Manifestation.

 

now, the Second Axiom states that the world is illusion,

*as the world as such*. meaning that if it or anything

within it is regarded as real, *apart* from its source

in brahman, it is then, AND ONLY THEN, an illusion.

 

otherwise it is brahman Itself. as the First Axiom states:

"All there is is brahman."

 

Sankara clarifies what is in the upanishads. there is

essentially no contradiction. this is why, to my view,

vedanta is really advaita and not really dvaita.

 

om shaanthi shaanthi shaanthiH